MYSTERIOUS "LUMP" ON GOLDFISH

[Mmathis]

I'll start out with my current water conditions:

POND, approx. 3000 gal, goldfish only (well and a few rosy reds, some snails, and tadpoles), maybe 20 - 25 goldies/Shubies, 100 gal SKIPPY filter, water crystal clear, oyster shell for KH
pH 8.2
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
KH 126
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QT, approx. 150 gal with a small TT filter, extra pump for circulation, and an airstone, currently contains 2 goldfish (one is for companionship) and 2 or 3 RR's, also oyster shell for KH
pH 8
ammonia 0.1
nitrites 0
Nitrates 10
KH 90
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I started my pond early LAST summer. One of my first fish purchases was a pretty, dark orange fantail (that I now think is a Wakin or a Watonai). Keep in mind that any additional fish that I added during the summer DID NOT get quarantined -- I was just starting to learn about that.

All summer my water stayed with numbers just like now. Not sure I ever saw any nitrites or nitrates. Well, sometime before winter, I noticed a lump on this fish. I'd say it was about the diameter of a pencil eraser. I honestly couldn't say WHEN it appeared -- I just noticed it one day. All attempts to catch this fish were futile and even a near drain, and I couldn't catch him. In fact, the only time I ever saw him was when I fed. Then he was GONE! I kept an eye on him, and the "lump" never showed signs of changing -- never got bigger or changed shape or color.

From what I could see, this "lump" wasn't external. It looked like it was UNDER the skin, had regular margins, and was just a lighter version of the fish's color, like you would see if the skin was stretched. My first impression was of some kind of encapsulated, parasitic critter (too much Sci-Fi ).

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Fast forward to now. I did finally manage to catch him. The first thing I did was feel the "lump." It was hard, like a tiny marble under his skin. The fish didn't show any signs of distress or discomfort when I palpated it. I quickly looked him over, and the only other thing I noticed were a few scales missing from same side of his body. So, he went into the QT. He was so skittish, absolutely TERRIFIED, that I decided to leave him alone for a couple of days. Tried for some pics, but the water was stirred up and you can't tell a thing. In fact, in the pics he looks covered with ICH, but it's just reflected light. Sorry about the crappy pics -- I know you can't really tell anything.



This ISN'T my fish, but this is pretty much what the "lump" looked like.
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Yesterday I managed to catch him again for a better exam. Noticed that he had more missing scales, but I'm wondering if that's from the trauma of trying to avoid capture. But, strangely, the " lump" had deflated. There was nothing sticking out or oozing from the site, it was just flat. When I palpated again, I really couldn't tell there had even been a lump there for the past year (except for the difference in color). He is eating, but I haven't been able to spot poop for a "fecal" report. I gave him a salt-dip, added salt (probably not enough) to the QT, then put him back in. These are the pics.



My microscope came this evening, so I tried to do some scrapings. (OMG, my microscope skills are RUSTY!). Not sure how I did, but was afraid of hurting him, so prob. wasn't as aggressive as I needed to be. I scraped along his sides, behind his gills, over the deflated "lump," under his belly, and under his chin area. When the cover slip went along the "lump," I could tell there was still a hard area. No discharge noted. I didn't get a lot of slime, but added a drop of pond water to the slide.

OK, looking under the scope.....didn't really see ANYTHING! I guess I was expecting to see definitive critters, but was a little disappointed -- I guess . So, no micro report to go along with the story. Will try again.

Any ideas what this might be, and what kind of an outcome we might be looking at? Also wondering if whatever this is, it's the reason for his hypersensitivity and skittishness. I've NEVER seen a GF bounce off the walls, trying to find a place to hide -- pure panic!

 

[gardengimp]

He's a pretty fish Maggie. I've no clue about the bump, but I've had goldfish lose scales from panicking.

The QT might be too wide open for him, you can float some floppy frisbees on top to give him some cover and a bit more sense of security. And/or put a plastic step stool in the QT for him to hang under.

Maybe he wants to be an inside fish for a spell? :cheerful:

 

[HTH]

Read about lumps here.

 

[Dave 54]

Maggie firstly let me say this what a beautiful fish you have there apart from the lump its in imaculate condition and would do very well if shown apart from the obvious but if the rest of your fish are like this well lets say you'd do rather well.
I've looked into this cyst before and I almost wish this was a tumour because with a tumour at least your fish gets many years living with its spouses in the pond we have a shusui koi that has lived with a tumour quite happily for 5 years now .
Unforunately this is what is known as Myxolobus, Myxosporida or Nodular disease and the outcome I'm affraid is catastrophic for the rest of its pondmates should this ever release the spores it carries and does so in their thousands .
There is sadly no known cure for this disease and I whould remove and QT this fish imediately.***
You see the spores spread out in the pond and can eaten by other goldfish when this happens the disease gets into the internal organs and muscles of the host fish it will then pass waste infected by the spore which in turn will be taken up by invertabrate hosts which are then eaten by other fish and the cycle continues unbated passed from fish to fish which is most probably how your fish came to have this.
The only way you can in reality put a stop on this to buy from an outlet or dealer you know is clear from it or look out for cyst's when buying your fish then if you see one dont buy any fish from that outlet.
*** when I say Quarentening this fish before this cyst goes , I mean a 100% QTing with seperate nets everything just like we in the koi world would do for KHV as well as this .
Closely look after this fish monitoring it for any changes should it worsen painlessly put it to sleep, now comes the really hard part Maggie and I'm sorry it cant get any worse than this "it May well be advisable to put all infected fish to sleep", whether that means its pond mates I'm unsure, about as nothing new has come out about this Parasite but if they do mean all the fish I feel rather sorry to be a bearer of such sad tidings.....
It is then recomended to completely nuke the pond and its systems sterilizing everything, before re-stocking your pond.
I've studied into if there are other cysts before but sadly as my long term memory serves me I always get redirected in our health books back to the Myxolobus/Myxosporidia/Nodular cyst so I take it there arent any other type .
I would ask a second opinion if you wish to and I will take no offence infact I almost hope I called this wrong .
Sadly I dont think I have
I dont know if this makes them hypersensetive or not perhaps it does gardengimps idea about the frisbee's is a really good idea as to giving the QT tank both shade and cover for any sick fish you may we'll get unrelared to this cyst and is a good one to keep in mind for the future thanx gardengimp


rgrds


Dave

Further
Howard thats a good link however I still think this is the correct call reading through everything

 

[Mmathis]

Well, Dave, you were right when you said "bad news." He is in QT at this time, since I was FINALLY able to catch him!

What can you tell me about the etiology of this "disease?" What else would I look for with this fish? At what point does it release the spores and how: like, is it the "lump," that contains them, in this case, or are they already through out this guy's system? ....since you mentioned the fecal route....

Guess what I'm grasping at, is there a chance this HASN'T spread???? And is there a chance this is NOT what's going on???? And what about my box turtles that share the pond water? Are they susceptible?

Now, I'm wondering about some Ruby Reds I'd purchased last year, also without putting them through QT. I put 2 in an indoor tank to keep another goldfish company (another story), and the remainder went into the pond. A few weeks ago I decided to release the fish from the aquarium into the pond. I rarely see the RR's as they are so fast and fleeting. So it wasn't until AFTER I caught & released the goldfish (a Ryukin) that I drained the tank to catch the RR'S. It was then that I noticed one of them had a lump. He and his companion went immediately into the QT. Then I noticed that one of the RR'S in the pond had a lump. Have been able to catch all of the RR'S but that one, and it was about that time that I also caught the fish this post is about. The RR'S have always been very active and hard to catch, but figured that was their nature. So now I'm wondering..... Maybe they were the source.

So, looks like I'm going to be busy. At most, right now, I'll focus on removing that last RR from the pond. Guess I can catch & examine the other fish, but at this point, I can't grasp the idea of mass euthanasia. If they have it, they do, so not much to do for them. Now the turtles are a different matter. I can always restrict their access to the pond water for the time being, but sure hope they don't have it, too!!!! Those are my REAL babies

And what about re-infection via the many frogs & toads.....? There are 2 or 3 Spotted Southern Leopard Frogs that took up residence in the "turtle bogs" last year.....

 

[HTH]

Yes there is a chance it is something else.

I think you said that it had already deflated while it was in the pond ? Or was that in QT ?

 

[Mmathis]

Yes there is a chance it is something else.

I think you said that it had already deflated while it was in the pond ? Or was that in QT ?

While it was in the QT,

 

[HTH]

While it was in the QT,

That is good news and I am sorry you have this problem.

The fact that it burst tells us it was not a tumor. So it must be an infection of some sort.

You seem to be on the right track. (not claiming to be an expert).

It might be interesting and informative if you could lance a lump and look at what is inside with the microscope.

 

[Mmathis]

Looking under the microscope, what would I be looking for?

 

[Dave 54]

Maggie its the only thing I can come up with there is nothing else it could be I checked up last night to see if my long term memory was still operating where my short term isnt (through heavy medication) including Morphine and the condition fibromyalgia.
Both which effects my short term to a piont that it isnt working at all, so you see why I'm being ever so careful with this one .
But on a major plus side you said it went whilst in QT...so provided there were no other fish in there your in the clear just keep this little fella indoors and nuke everything where it burst "filter, filter media included" plus any nets that you handled him with.
Did you read Howards link to Myxolobus, Myxosporida or Nodular disease as it is called ,most interesting you'll learn a lot.
I dont think you have to worry about the turtle nor any frogs keep an eye out for any other lunps just to be extra safe
I'll say you dodged a bullet if there isnt a reoccurance within 6 months( thinking positive here), which there wont be.
As to the microscope and identifiying it, it says only a trained specialist could identify this parasite (it is off oval shaped with two eye like structures at one end).

rgds

Dave

 

[HTH]

Dave you maybe right but I think you are jumping to conclusions about what is causing the lump. If one could lance a bump, and assuming you found something, get a photo or make a drawing which 'experts' could help identify I know there is not lump at this time but if one were to show up I would sure try to find out what I was dealing with.

As for what to look for I expect whatever it is would be rampant in a sample from the lump. Start with a low power and work you way up. Could be it is a bacteria too small to see but still worth the look. I am still new at the microscope stuff.

I had lumps that looked similar in pre web times when I was into keeping fancies in aquariums,

 

[Mmathis]

Thanks, Dave! I've GOOGLED about everything I can regarding this "bug" [protozoan?] and its relatives. But so far, I'm mostly seeing where the "spores" are released and consumed upon death of the fish. Am I reading the right information, as I'm not finding anything that describes these "lumps?"

There are currently about 4 fish in the QT. One is the companion GF I added, and then there are a couple of rosy reds. There is one more RR in the pond that has a "lump," but only guessing that it's the same problem. Am going to try to draw down the pond today in an attempt to catch it and put it in QT.

Is something like this [the lumps] ever caused by something that burrows under the skin? Some kind of worm or something? I recall seeing funny lumps on fresh-caught sport fish, and always assumed [or maybe I was told this] that they were "worms" that were encapsulated -- that the fish's immune response caused its body to wall off the parasite.

Assuming you haven't killed Jack.....but would greatly appreciate that list of books whenever you get a chance. Of course, something geared toward the newbie fishkeeper

 

[HTH]

To be honest I am scared silly when it comes to sick fish. There are so many things outside your control when you buy goldfish.

I used to buy some nice looking fancies from an aquarium shop and few lived past six months. It did not matter how good I treated them. The fish supplier this shop used had problems with anchor worms etc. Looking back I think the pet shop wiped out their immune systems along with any parasites they carried.

 

[Dave 54]

Dave you maybe right but I think you are jumping to conclusions about what is causing the lump. If one could lance a bump, and assuming you found something, get a photo or make a drawing which 'experts' could help identify I know there is not lump at this time but if one were to show up I would sure try to find out what I was dealing with.

As for what to look for I expect whatever it is would be rampant in a sample from the lump. Start with a low power and work you way up. Could be it is a bacteria too small to see but still worth the look. I am still new at the microscope stuff.

I had lumps that looked similar in pre web times when I was into keeping fancies in aquariums,

Howard you have every right to ask questions my friend because it makes me look for other lumps which is good.
I've had water filled cysts on my large doitsu when it knocks off a scale but that is totally different and much thinner walled than we are talking about here. There is the fish pox lump, but a waxy growth is seen and they cover a fishes body but disapear in higher temperatures.
There are gass bubbles normally seen on the edges of fins but are not acctually lumps.
You get lumps on a tail after a fish has caused physical damage to itself but these are sort of divits .
Black spot diease where the fish is covered in tiny little cysts that contain a larval Parasite the black colouration is provided by the host in a reaction against infection
Goldfish can also have tumours grow on them which are similar in their makup then we are back to cysts again, the one we are talking about and these are the only ones I can remember, with only the tumour being similar in any way to the growth that is described by Maggie and what we see in her photographs but they are solid to the best of my belief
It may be that these lumps are endemic to fancy goldfish but this is not metioned by the good Dr Johnson DVM in his Fancy Goldfisg book ,
You know me I'm sceptical of anything printed on the Web prefareing to study books on fish keeping instead , but thanx for raising it howard .

rgrds

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

To be honest I am scared silly when it comes to sick fish. There are so many things outside your control when you buy goldfish.

I used to buy some nice looking fancies from an aquarium shop and few lived past six months. It did not matter how good I treated them. The fish supplier this shop used had problems with anchor worms etc. Looking back I think the pet shop wiped out their immune systems along with any parasites they carried.

To be homest with you Howard every fish keeper worth his salt is scared stiff of what might happen, Val started me out reading by buying me my first fish health book the then Salamander Manual of Fish Health I read it cover to cover and things changed for us , we were no longer getting fish dying on us so we bought the Interpet manuel of koi healrh and pretty soon we had a fare sized library and were you learn to use it as a tool to cross reference which enables you to compare answers from Authors, trouble is each one has a differing take on fish keeping and fish health, so pretty soon you learn to find the middle ground in all of these answers then make your own mind up .as to what a problem is, what it does and how to treat it.
It doesnt make me an expert in any sense and I would be wrong to say so ( we know of one chap how lives near who set himself up as a Fish Doctor) wrong of him to say so in everyway but what can you do ????
Remember in this hobby nothing is static things change at a rapid pace, so you have to keep abreast of things by updating your knowledge you are always learning in this hobby it sure as hell aint boring lol

rgrds

Dave