Need advice on filter, please

[humbirdlover]

I have a 450 gallon pond with goldfish, and would like some input on with brand pressure filter is best. I see some have bio balls,and other types of media. But need advice on which would be easiest as far as maintenance, and price. Thanks

 

[addy1]

I have not heard a lot of good things about them, but these new members are using two. They may be able to help you.

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/10256-family-project-roughly-8000-gallons-pond/

 

[Waterbug]

I'm not a fan of pressure filters...higher pump electric use for no apparent benefit, hard to clean (not just backflush), hard to tell when cleaning is needed, they can split open, etc. I'm also not a fan of combo filters as good bacteria can't live in such an environment, or at least not do very well. So if you have your heart set on a pressurized filter I can't help.

Since you mentioned ease of maintenance I can suggest an alternative. For your size pond a strawberry pot trickle tower filter is a very good bio filter. Lots of other sites and designs on the web and probably even in this forum. IMO these can be easier to build than a pressurized filter is to install. This are very good bio filters, much better than even a clean pressurized filter because of more O2 and you virtually never have to clean them (you could replace the rocks every couple of years).

For mechanical filtering (removing visible dirt) in that size pond I don't think there's anything better than a small minnow net from the pet store. Scoop around the pond bottom once a week and you'd have a very clean pond. Pressurized filters are very good at mechanical filtering, that is what they're designed for, IF the dirt gets to the filter. In high end ponds bottom drains and TPRs are used to move dirt to the filter. Without that type of setup most dirt just collects on the bottom...so you still have to do the scooping or something.

If you go with the pressurized filter you can improve movement of dirt to the filter by pointing the pump outflow at the pond bottom. But most people would rather have a waterfall, fountain or something instead. Plus this can greatly increase the number of cleaning needed. Kind of a Catch-22, if a pressurized filter is working well it normally has to be cleaned more often.

 

[humbirdlover]

I'm not a fan of pressure filters...higher pump electric use for no apparent benefit, hard to clean (not just backflush), hard to tell when cleaning is needed, they can split open, etc. I'm also not a fan of combo filters as good bacteria can't live in such an environment, or at least not do very well. So if you have your heart set on a pressurized filter I can't help.

Since you mentioned ease of maintenance I can suggest an alternative. For your size pond a strawberry pot trickle tower filter is a very good bio filter. Lots of other sites and designs on the web and probably even in this forum. IMO these can be easier to build than a pressurized filter is to install. This are very good bio filters, much better than even a clean pressurized filter because of more O2 and you virtually never have to clean them (you could replace the rocks every couple of years).

For mechanical filtering (removing visible dirt) in that size pond I don't think there's anything better than a small minnow net from the pet store. Scoop around the pond bottom once a week and you'd have a very clean pond. Pressurized filters are very good at mechanical filtering, that is what they're designed for, IF the dirt gets to the filter. In high end ponds bottom drains and TPRs are used to move dirt to the filter. Without that type of setup most dirt just collects on the bottom...so you still have to do the scooping or something.

If you go with the pressurized filter you can improve movement of dirt to the filter by pointing the pump outflow at the pond bottom. But most people would rather have a waterfall, fountain or something instead. Plus this can greatly increase the number of cleaning needed. Kind of a Catch-22, if a pressurized filter is working well it normally has to be cleaned more often.

Thanks Waterbug, I'll read up on the strawberry pot. If I do go back to the gravity type biofilter like the skippy, how big a container do I need for my 450 gallon pond?

 

[Waterbug]

If I do go back to the gravity type biofilter like the skippy, how big a container do I need for my 450 gallon pond?

I'm sorry to be a downer but I'm actually not a fan of any static submerged media filter, including the Skippy. There are many here who are very much in favor of the Skippy and they can help you.

But to answer your question from my perspective...it's impossible to say a certain size Skippy is right for any pond. At least logically. I mean anyone and their brother is only too happy to give their opinion and make it sound like it's some kind of fact. People generally just say "that size should be just fine", but it's pull out of thin air. And in most cases that's OK because no bio filter at all is actually needed. So a 5 or 500 gal Skippy would indeed be fine.

Combo filters
Skippy is a combo filter, doing both bio and mechanical. I'm addressing bio here because that's what keeps fish alive and is very easy to measure and understand.

Bio filters create an environment for ammonia and nitrite converting bacteria. These bacteria need different things including access to moving water which carries the ammonia, nitrite, O2, carbon, etc., they need to live. They can't survive if there's even the lightest coating of muck or dust on the media. So these work best in fast moving water with high O2.

Mechanical filters work like most people think, media traps muck. The more covered with muck they get the better they are. These work best in slow moving water, slower the better.

Combo filters like Skippy, pressurized and virtually all filters marketed to the backyard hobbyist, all try to combine both functions. But that is very hard to do well. In almost every case the media that's suppose to grow good bacteria gets covered in dust or muck which cuts it off from its food source. Sizing these becomes difficult because they change over time as muck covers the bio media killing more and more good bacteria.

Just a whole lot easier and better imo to split out the functions. So the bio stays clean and you don't have to mess with it when you clean the mechanical.

Better bio filters
Almost all higher end Koi ponds stopped using static submerged media for bio filters years ago. With things like the trickle towers, Bakki showers, and moving bed filters the media is washed clean 24/7 so they perform the same in a year as they do today. They're more predictable. They also convert about 10 times the amount of ammonia and nitrite because of higher O2 so these filters can be 10 times smaller which many people like.

However, all this bio stuff isn't really a big issue in water garden type ponds because the amount of fish in the pond and the amount of food is so low no bio filter is needed. The bacteria grow lots of places, not just inside filters. The "normal" bacteria population can handle the small amount of ammonia produced in many water gardens. Plus most water garden owners never test water so they'd have no idea if they had an ammonia problem or not.

And that is the bottom line for any bio filter. Whether you have no filter or 10 filters you measure ammonia and nitrite to tell if you need more bio filtering.

Simple solution...
If you keep things simple you start with no bio filter assuming a reasonable fish load. If you measure ammonia or nitrite you add a reasonable bio filter. The strawberry pot trickle tower is a good start for a 450 gal pond because it'll most likely convert more ammonia than a 55 gal drum Skippy. Or you add a Skippy or whatever. Then you keep measuring ammonia to see if you need more bio filter, or less fish, or smaller fish.

Complex way to size a bio filter...
Most filters marketed to hobbyists will say "for ponds X gals". That's actually fairly meaningless. A 1000 gal pond with no fish certainly needs no bio filter. That same pond with 10 full grown Koi will need waaaaay more bio filter. So some people say "X inches of fish". Better, but also not great. The real way to measure is by the amount of food that is fed. Given a weight of food the amount of ammonia produced can be estimated. Trickle tower, Bakki and moving bed filters can give pretty reliable conversion rates, so given an amount of ammonia a good estimate can be had for the filter size. This is way more complex than most people want to get into, even at the high end. But it can be helpful to at least understand the basics. That way if someone tells you "for a 450 gal pond you need a 45 gal filter" you know you're talking to someone who really doesn't know much about ponds.

 

[humbirdlover]

Thanks Waterbug, I had no idea it was going to be so hard to decide what to do. It's like everytime I think I have it figured out, I end up back at square one. I think I'll just deal with the green water, and give the whole thing a rest. I tried the bio filter build, that was big, ugly and didn't work. Tried buying a filter, that ended up too cheaply made and parts didn't work, so sent back. With my pond, I'm not sure I can do the strawberry pot trickle type. We are into Sept now, so not too long til cold weather, and anything I have would have to be shut down anyway. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[Waterbug]

It can be complex, but knowing the basics can make life easier. With the basics you can look at filter and have a pretty good idea how it performs.

I think when starting out people jump right into the complexities thinking there are actual answers and really there aren't. Which is why manufacturers are only too happy to provide simple answers. Their customers demand simple answers and sellers would go out of business quickly if they gave accurate info.

Some filters, like bogs, waterfalls and streams are little understood by anyone. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't and we haven't a clue why.

 

[sissy]

Why could you not put a raised planter in the middle of your pond and use it as a filter .Even one of those water bowls with gravel and plants in the middle will work

 

[humbirdlover]

Sounds good, too. I got a preformed thing awhile ago, that I'm hoping might work on that shelf. gotta wait for the rain to stop long enough to try it, and hopefully have enough pea gravel to cover the bottom deep enough. If this works I might do something smaller on the other corner shelf,

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I agree and disagree with WaterBug. Let me explain and relate my thoughts on the mater.
Waterbug states that Skippy type of filters don't really work well as bio filters and then goes on to say bio-filters aren't usually needed in most backyard ponds, this is probably true but it certainly depends on fish load. Assuming it is true and the fish load is kept low, then you only need to worry about mechanical filtering. This is where I think most backyard pond hobbyist should be focusing their attention, and although they don't know it, I believe they inadvertently do. As Waterbug mentioned submerged media type filters collect muck, as do pressure filters, and a whole host of DIY type filters that are suppose to function as bio-filters. The fact that they do collect muck on the bio media means that they won't function very well as "bio-filters", and that they are in fact working as "mechanical filters". The problem is that the two different filters "mechanical" and "bio" should be treated differently. Since we are assuming that we don't need bio-filtering and we are only interested in mechanical filtering then that is what we should be focusing on.
So what specifics make a good mechanical filter?
Obviously cost is a factor, and this is the main reason most backyard ponders don't have bottom drains and sieve filters. Waterbug suggest all you need is a fish net for scooping out the muck on the bottom. That is certainly a good idea, but I think if you are interested in clear (clearer) water it would be a good idea to also have some sort of mechanical filtering system plumbed in to your pond's water circulation plumbing.
The other specifics of a good mechanical filter would be effectiveness and ease of cleaning. I think some pressure filters could, and do, work effectively as mechanical filters if they have effective backwash systems on them, but frankly I find many of them are kind of pricey for what they do. For that mater a properly designed sand filter for ponds would work really well as a mechanical filter, but they tend to be pricey as well. A cheaper DIY skippy type filters would work for mechanical filtering as long as you are willing and prepared to wash or replace the filter media often. Just think of, and treat, the skippy as a mechanical filter and you might have just what you need.
Every pond is different, some have lots of fish, some have lots of plants. You might find scooping the bottom with a fish net is all you need for mechanical filtering and you don't need to do anything for bio-filtering at all. If that is the case then great!

 

[Waterbug]

One point Mucky didn't mention is that for any mechanical filter to work the dirt can't be allowed to settle inside the pond...it must be moved to the filter. It is very common in water garden type forums to skip the need for a bottom drain. And when a bottom drain is suggest or implemented it is very rare to mention or implement TPRs (jets of water key to moving dirt to the drain).

It's like placing a vacuum cleaner in the middle of your living room and turning it on, it will only suck up stuff very close to the intake and dust balls that roll by. At the end of a year there will indeed be stuff in the bag, so people might say it works, but your living room won't look very clean.

So imo a pond can have the absolutely best mechanical filter that can be purchased or made and it won't be effective in keeping a pond clean without a dirt pushing system. A small backyard water garden isn't the same as a $100K Koi pond but the physics of both in dealing with mechanical filtering is exactly the same.

Without a system to move dirt to the filter the dirt settles inside the pond and has to be cleaned out some other way....like net scooping. The value of a mechanical filter that removes 10, 20, 50% of dirt isn't that useful imo.

The other factor Mucky didn't mention and that I think is important is pond size. If this were a 1,000 gal pond or larger I'd say adding filtering starts to make a keeper's life easier. If it was 10,000 gal I'd say filtering is extremely helpful. But at 450 gal it's way easier imo to use a net than clean a filter. And way more effective than a filter without a bottom drain/TPR, which seems like overkill to me in small ponds. Has to be each keeper's call. To me mechanical filtering is more a function of whatever makes the life of the keeper easier. I consider net scooping to be a type of mechanical filter and most effective in small ponds. A filter doesn't always have to be a big ugly tank.

Next best imo would be a vacuum system.

 

[humbirdlover]

Thanks Mucky, I think I'm getting a better picture. So basically what I'm planning on building is a mechanical filter, and other than collecting the muck, won't have any effect on the water quality? and if I'm understanding correctly, with a 450 gallon pond, with 7 small goldfish (and some babies, lOL) I really don't need anything more?

 

[sissy]

lets put it simple guys we are not scientists and a filter is a filter and if it works it works if it doesn't then try something else .It does not have to cost a fortune to build your own .You don't need fancy gadgets all these explanations simple as simple for me .A tote a tank something for filter media and some kind of pump .If I can raise 2 boys I can raise fish and not kill them .Gosh darn it my boys are alive .I want my life simple and my pond just as simple ,I don't have tons of money to spend on it .We are not pro pond builders and never will be ,we just want pretty and simple .Sorry guys don't want to insult you or offend you .But of course there is a right way and a wrong way .You can never say this works or that works ,they all work to a point it is the end result that counts healthy fish and some what clear water . :razz: No insult meant in what I post as I am no expert .,but I try to learn from my mistakes and help others try simple not expensive so they can have a nice pond .I leave the big expensive ponds to you guys . :razz:

 

[humbirdlover]

lets put it simple guys we are not scientists and a filter is a filter and if it works it works if it doesn't then try something else .It does not have to cost a fortune to build your own .You don't need fancy gadgets all these explanations simple as simple for me .A tote a tank something for filter media and some kind of pump .If I can raise 2 boys I can raise fish and not kill them .Gosh darn it my boys are alive .I want my life simple and my pond just as simple ,I don't have tons of money to spend on it .We are not pro pond builders and never will be ,we just want pretty and simple .Sorry guys don't want to insult you or offend you .But of course there is a right way and a wrong way .You can never say this works or that works ,they all work to a point it is the end result that counts healthy fish and some what clear water . :razz: No insult meant in what I post as I am no expert .,but I try to learn from my mistakes and help others try simple not expensive so they can have a nice pond .I leave the big expensive ponds to you guys . :razz:

If I could find the BIG Hugs emoticon, I would use it. Thank you

 

[sissy]

your welcome i just don't want to insult the experts on here and hope they are OK with what i posted ,no offense meant guys i do like ya ,really do .