Need guidance please

Discussion in 'Illness and Disease' started by Joe1279, May 13, 2016.

  1. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    Good afternoon. I am reaching out for help as I am unable to find a specialist in my area. I built a 21,000 gallon pond last summer. It has been an aweful Spring here in Ohio and we had a major warm up and then a great cooling. It has remained cool. Getting the temp up in the pond is so slow so I am hanging around 60 and we actually have snow in the forecast. I have a lot of alge in the pond and did two PP treatments in beginning of April. It didn't seem to help much. So I did an API Algefix treatment on Monday. But my bigger problem is this. I had a big beautiful koi in April become listless and hanging at the edge. I took pictures and went to a local pond store. He told me it was ich and the weather must have stressed the fish and to treat with ich treatment. So I pulled the fish and treated separately and he passed on day two. Now I have another one floating and I am completely at a loss as to what to do for a 21,000 pond with over 20 koi, and about a dozen babies that made it through the the winter. I have checked the water and all perimeters are on spot, it just looks like a swampy mess. The white and black koi is the one that passed the yellow and black is not doing well and I pulled him this am. Help, I am totally at a loss and am attached to these koi.
     

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    Joe1279, May 13, 2016
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  2. Joe1279

    Tula

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    I'm in southern Ohio, a fellow Buckeye :) I'm sorry for the loss of your koi.

    In my opinion , often "pond stores" do not give us the best advice and sell us various treatments we may, or may not need.

    Can you tell us about your filters, water movement and aeration? You said your parameters are "spot on", I'm assuming you tested for ammonia , nitrite, nitrate, phosphorous and PH?

    It's common to have free water in the Spring, as out filters begin to cycle. BTW, are you feeding your koi?

    Welcome to our forum , I'm sure you'll get a lot of good information here.
     
    Tula, May 13, 2016
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  3. Joe1279

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    What is your DO (dissolved oxygen) level. Could you post the actual numeric results of the latest series of water quality tests?
    Do your fish have white spots on the gills?
     
    Meyer Jordan, May 13, 2016
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  4. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    Thank you! I have me weed tested phosphorus, but ammonia and nitrite both zero, nitrate low about 5, ph is 8-8.2 which is my norm. I have started feeding some as they have come to the surface, but about ever other day. I have a great filter system. Although I only have one filter pad in at the skimmer as our now and non at the falls, because of the algae treatments. But last fall when I shut down the pond and pulled everything the water was clear. The water movement is great. I also have two small pumps going with a water squirter(a cement fish) and a large falls. And I 100% agree about the pond store. He looked at the picture of the black and white oil and tried to sell me one bottle of ich treatment. It treats 3600 gallons and requires multiple treatments. I told him again my pond is 21,000 gallons!!! I would have like 300 in that to treat the whole pond! I would most like to treat the whole pond to assure I am killing whatever is affecting them. I did like I said two pp treatments at 2 ppm, (which I believe is 21 teaspoons.). But at the amount of algae in the pond I don't think it was effective because I did both treatments after the sick fish was removed and now a month later I have another. But I honestly don't feel comfortable raising the ppm in fear of a dangerous level for the fish.
     
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    Joe1279, May 13, 2016
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  5. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    I am not sure how to measure dissolved oxygen levels? Advice please! I believe if you refer to the pics there is white spots. The yellow one actually I am not sure are spots or some type of ulcers. I am so sorry, but I do not have any experience at all with sick fish.
     
    Joe1279, May 13, 2016
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  6. Joe1279

    Tula

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    Are you running an aerator? When algae is killed off, it depletes O2 levels and you mentioned your fish hanging at the edge of the pond? Just a thought.
     
    Tula, May 13, 2016
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  7. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    No aerator. Here are falls and pumps. And just came out this guy didn't make it. And I didn't start treatments till after the first koi passed
     

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  8. Joe1279

    Tula

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    @Meyer Jordan is far more knowledgeable than me, so hopefully he'll weigh in.

    IF your fish were fine, prior to your treating your pond with PP, in an effort to get rid of algae and then treated with Algaefix , I lean towards low O2, especially as you mention them as being listless and hanging at the edge. Killing off algae, especially if closer to the evening, can deplete O2.

    If it were my pond, I'd either vacuum, or use a fine mesh pool net, to remove all killed algae on the bottom of the pond and any other debris. I also would add some fresh water ( be sure to treat for chlorine or chloramine) and either add an aerator, or another pump to increase "splash action" on the surface of your pond.

    I'm sorry you lost another koi :(
     
    Tula, May 14, 2016
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  9. Joe1279

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Tula's suggestion of providing aeration is probably the best immediate action that you can take.
    Do you know if your fish have spawned recently?
    Did you accurately dose the PP? Any, even slight, overdose can create health issues in fish.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
    Meyer Jordan, May 14, 2016
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  10. Joe1279

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    @Joe1279 ... just looking for clarification... Was the 2 PP treatments and AlgaeFix before or after your first koi became listless?

    2 PP treatments measured by teaspoon and one AlgaeFix dose regiment... This is ALOT of oxidizing.... My concern is that you might have burned your fish's gills.

    Did you significantly increase aeration during the PP treatments?

    Can you share a picture of the fish's gills? ... that is... a gills picture of the most recently ailing, still alive, fish...


    Next time... use a gram scale, not teaspoons. Teaspoon to teaspoon can vary dramasticaly in actual grams and very important to be quite accurate down to the 0.1 decimal of a gram when talking about PP treatments. If you do not have a gram scale and want to do PP treatment again, look into getting one a digital gram scale that goes down to 0.1 gram accuracy and has a "tare" feature. Do not use food grade gram scales since they are not accurate enough. Here are some examples of good gram scales for PP treatments.


    Was the water movement maintained or significantly reduced during Winter?
     
    crsublette, May 14, 2016
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  11. Joe1279

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    I agree with @Meyer Jordan and @Tula assessment of O2 concerns.

    This sounds like a dissolved oxygen level problem either due to low oxygen in the water, not enough water circulation during the winter, or the fish's gills were burned by the oxidizing treatments.

    Burned fish gills do not grow back, as far as I am aware; so, once the fish's gills are burned, then they are doomed to obtaining less oxygen from the water. This is why accuracy of PP treatments and knowing exact pond gallons (as close as possible) is so incredibly important.

    A picture of the currently ailing, still alive, fish's gills will tell us if there is a problem due to gill damage.
     
    crsublette, May 14, 2016
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  12. Joe1279

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    ... I felt compelled to double check myself here.... Koiphen is quite excellent when comes to these sort of things and their K.O.I books and courses are quite interesting, well worth the money.

    @Joe1279 It may NOT be gill damage... unless you very significantly overdosed on PP, that is very well over 2.2ppm.

    Your Input? Will damaged gills regenerate? (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?48409-Your-input-Will-damaged-gills-regenerate)

    This very well may rule out significant gill damage created by the oxidizing treatment... if you are confident about the ppm of your PP oxidizing regiment.
     
    crsublette, May 14, 2016
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  13. Joe1279

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    Well, that is about the breadth of knowledge for this subject on my part... Sorry for not being any more help.

    @Joe1279 I hope a solution finds you soon. :)
     
    crsublette, May 14, 2016
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  14. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    Thanks everyone for all the input. Let me try to hit all. So towards the end of March we had a nice warm up. So for winter we had a pond breather. We pulled all filters and the pumps. So in March we turned the gals back on and added one large filter to the skimmer box. The pond from setting all winter was pretty cloudy. But all the fish seemed to be doing well. We had lost one 4-5 inch fish who was deceased when it unfroze. So for a week or two they started movement and seemed fine. Then I notice the big black and white hanging bear the side. He let me bend down and touch him so I knew he wasn't feeling well. So I immediately pulled him into a separate tank and went to the pond supply store. They looked at the pics and said it was ich. Probably he said from it jumping up in the 70's for and a quick warm up, to a drop it even snowing again. So it has been up and down weather wise. The algae now at this point was growing like crazy and there were strings at least a foot long coming off the falls. So I did the PP. i followed directions and for a 21,000 gallon pond I only dosed at a 19-20 thousand pond. It said to repeat in four days. Which I did. The ponds still had algae but I didn't do anything else. So after a few weeks the fish actually did spawn and there were eggs everywhere. But within a few days they were so covered with algae again I couldn't see them, but didn't think they were viable anyways because the water was bordering 60 degrees. So on Wednesday I did the first algefix treatment again I under treated for a 19 ,000 pond. The falls and two pumps have remained running the entire time. I just continue to clean the filter in the skimmer because it is completely brown and full of algae. On the algefix you are to treat in three days, which would be today. But I notice a fish distressed and held off. I pulled the fish, which I am sorry, he died earlier this afternoon so I was not able to get a picture of the gills. The other fish seem to be swimming and eating today and the water temp was at 64. So my plan tomorrow because we didn't have means, but we were able to get a submersible pump, is to try to drain 25% of the pond and add fresh water in. But I am still believe by the pics of the black and white fish there is white spot (ich) on him. I am at a loss what to do because algae is still taking over and I am not sure how to move forward.
     
    Joe1279, May 14, 2016
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  15. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    I might also add that I sat by the pond during the pp treatment and had no signs of distress from any fish even the small babies that made it thru the winter. So I don't believe there was an OD to damage gills I had peroxide ready to go if there was any problems, but we experienced none.
     
    Joe1279, May 14, 2016
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  16. Joe1279

    sissy sissy

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    algaecide should never even be sold,it is a killer .To clear water in my stock tanks I use liquid barley and there is also barley with peat .In my pond I just use a lot of air and water movement .I have 12 air stones on a laguna aerator and then my spitters .Over aeration is better than anything to clear up water .I run my uv for about a month only to help everything get started up .
     
    sissy, May 14, 2016
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  17. Joe1279

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    You may have mentioned this earlier, but how would you describe your Water 'Clarity'? Clear, cloudy white, cloudy brown, cloudy green or other?
     
    Meyer Jordan, May 14, 2016
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  18. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    Thanks Jordan for the info. I did order an aerator this am. The water is cloudy green. We got hit with 50 degree weather an Rain all day, so I am hoping tomorrow to drain 25% and do some water change. I guess I don't know the best way to get the sludge off the bottom without causing more problems. I also looked at that liquid barely on Amazon today too and was thinking about that. I think I souls but all the filters back in. I have four more that are usually in, I was just trying to get the water cleared up first. And the firsh were spawning again today!
     
    Joe1279, May 14, 2016
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  19. Joe1279

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Don't hold out too much hope of the water clearing until the fish finish spawning. In the meantime I would suggest that you completely reassemble all of your filters so that they are functioning 100%. You need this.
    How thick do you estimate is the sludge build-up on the bottom of the pond.. There are products on the market nicknamed 'sludge-busters' that are primarily bacteria but will do a satisfactory job of breaking down the sludge, especially if used in conjunction with an aerator.
     
    Meyer Jordan, May 14, 2016
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  20. Joe1279

    Joe1279

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    Oh ok. So when they spawn they are stirring up the bottom too? It isn't that thick. I just had the pond put in last August. I have about 20 koi in. And I cleaned the leaves off in the winter so it isn't too bad. ( from what I can see). The deep end is 5 ft so I really can't see what is going on down there. Meyer Jordan, did u get a look at the pics of the black and white fish close up? Do you have any idea what the poor thing had going on there? I ended up also ordering the barley-peat mix. So hopefully, it is literally 34 degrees out right now and Tommorow is no better. We are supposed to hit the 70's next weeks so I am really hoping the new areator will be in and we can get some water drained and some new water out in. But I will look into the natural sludge buster too.
     
    Joe1279, May 15, 2016
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