Need help adding 3grown Comet Goldfish to new pond...Thanks!

[deadringer303]

Hello all! I am new to ponds for the most part but have read a lot about them I need solid advice. I have a 250 gal eye shaped pond with a 400 gal per hour pump running a small waterfall. On the intake of the pump is a beckett biofilter (has anyone had any experience with these). This filter has the bio-balls inside of it and a 5 pre-filter posts. I have 2 airstones and it has a pvc liner. The shallow parts are lined with thin flagstone to give a bit of reflectiveness at night when lit up. This was built last summer and has been filled and emptied many times to leach the bad stuff out of the bricks and it only goes above ground an inch or 2 The pond is anywhere from 18-20 inches deep in the larger part and about 8-10 inches deep around the front edges and the left side. THIS POND IS FULL SUN. I have 1 potted Mayle Lily, 2 water hyacinth, 2 bundles of parrots feather, and a dwarf papyrus in hopes of shading the top, or at least part of it but they are not growing much yet. The papyrus and lily plants are just now starting to spring up after winter. I filled it, dechlorinated it and added algae killer. Within a few weeks the pond was thick green with algae so yesterday I did an apporximately 50-70% water change, dechlorinated it and added the algae killer again. I also put in a barley bail 4 days ago so it shoud start working soon. I really want to adopt a persons 3 comet goldfish that are around 12', 10' and 8' long and I want to do this before he gives them to someone else. I bought a test kit today and my levels were se follows:

GH-60
KH-40-80 (I cant quite tell)
PH-6-6.5
No2-0
N03-0

(Temps in Denver have been ranging from 60-80 degrees wiht lots of sun)

I have read that comet goldfish are best at 7.2ish ph level and a much higher kh and gh. I was also told (by a petsmart employee who may not be credible) that these paramaters would be fine and the pond would balance itself out. I DO NOT want these fish to die so I would like any advice I can get on correcting what needs to be corrected. I know comets are pretty versatile and I do not want to be upping and downing the ph levels and every other level out there.

1. Do I need to put fish in before the biofilter has the beneficial bacteria growing? Can i put them in before I have it? Will adding the fish complete the cycle?
2. Can I put these fish in at these levels and the pond will balance itself out? (I realize i need to monitor and do partial water changes when hot)
3. It is fairly warm here but certainly not hot yet. I am guessing I dont have to worry too much about shade until around June.( its April 30 2012 today) Is this acceptable to put them in there now before shade? I think things will grow a lot in a month and a half.
4. Is there any good rules of thumb to ponds? I really dont want to kill anything.
5. Should I add some type of good bacteria to kick start the biofilter?

OH!! I have a small bullfrog that was actually a tadpole last summer. He stuck around! I also added 1 new tadpole 4 days ago.

Sorry for all the info. Just want to be specific and get the right advice

Thanks all!
Josh

Pics attached along with a few of my back yard that I created from things off of Craigslist. It was an empty pile of dirt and weeds when we bought the house.

 

[Waterbug]

It's cool you've done research...unfortunately almost all water gardening info on the web is pretty bad. I think you need to be much more sceptical. My responses may seem a little harsh... it sounded like you wanted a different perspective and that can appear harsh.

beckett biofilter

Pretty much worthless. Trickle tower is much better.

I have 2 airstones

Very good.

...emptied many times to leach the bad stuff out of the bricks

There's no bad stuff in bricks.

...and added algae killer.

Oops, that isn't going to work.

Within a few weeks the pond was thick green with algae

That sounds about right. Miracle in a bottle...won't it be great if any one of them actually worked?

...and added the algae killer again.

Try, try again.

I also put in a barley bail 4 days ago so it shoud start working soon.

Why should it start working? Because the people who took 5 cents worth of straw and sell it for $10 say it works? Here's why barley is a myth.

I really want to adopt a persons 3 comet goldfish that are around 12', 10' and 8' long

That is a pretty large fish load. You're right to be concerned. It can be done and isn't super hard...as long as you stop believing people selling you stuff.

GH-60
KH-40-80 (I cant quite tell)
PH-6-6.5
No2-0
N03-0

Testing water is key...you're on the right track. Research "ph buffering" if you haven't. Your pH number seems low for the GH and KH number. Getting a good pH reading is difficult.

I have read that comet goldfish are best at 7.2ish ph level and a much higher kh and gh.

There's optimal and there's practical. Swings in pH kill fish so to me KH and GH are more important as they keep pH stable.

 

[Waterbug]

I was also told (by a petsmart employee who may not be credible) that these paramaters would be fine and the pond would balance itself out.

Whenever anyone says "balance itself out" I'd run for the hills. It's meaningless. Your parameters are fine, except pH or KH isn't adding up. The question is will the water parameters stay fine.

I DO NOT want these fish to die so I would like any advice I can get on correcting what needs to be corrected. I know comets are pretty versatile and I do not want to be upping and downing the ph levels and every other level out there.

Good for you. That also goes for putting bags and bottles of stuff into the pond...none of them work. Well except for...no, none of them work. They add crap to the pond. Crap that the bacteria have to clean up for you.

1. Do I need to put fish in before the biofilter has the beneficial bacteria growing? Can i put them in before I have it? Will adding the fish complete the cycle?

Bio filters can be started by adding ammonia to the water and then measuring to see when ammonia goes to zero. But since you want to add fish you could just do that. Their waste will feed the bacteria. Monitor and do water changes like you said as needed to keep ammonia low during the first week until the bio is going. Don't feed the fish anything for the first few weeks. Food means ammonia.

2. Can I put these fish in at these levels and the pond will balance itself out? (I realize i need to monitor and do partial water changes when hot)

Now you're saying it. What does "balance itself out" mean? Ponds are in constant change.

3. It is fairly warm here but certainly not hot yet. I am guessing I dont have to worry too much about shade until around June.( its April 30 2012 today) Is this acceptable to put them in there now before shade?

Probably. You could take water temps at dawn and like 4pm to see how far the temp swing is. Swings are hard on fish and you have a pretty shallow pond for such large fish.

4. Is there any good rules of thumb to ponds? I really dont want to kill anything.

A. Learn about pH buffering.

B. Learn about bio filters and how they work. You'll see why fixed submerged media is not very good and why filters that stay clean and have good O2 work 10-30 times better. Good bio filters are "trickle tower" and "moving bed".

C. UV filters kill green water algae. It's the only 100% effective method. There are many ways that might work, but in a pond this small all of those options are greatly diminished.

D. Test water ---And you're already doing that.

E. Don't believe anything you read or hear. Some good info can be found at Koi Beginner. I don't agree with all of it but it's about as solid as you'll find. Be careful that info matches your pond. Advice that is good for one pond can be bad for another. You will hear the term "large fish load", that would apply to you.

5. Should I add some type of good bacteria to kick start the biofilter?

You're killing me. Comes in a bottle, so no, you shouldn't add it. You already have all the bacteria your pond can support. Conditions is the limiting factor, not the number of bacteria. When fish are added ammonia will be produced which will support more bacteria. They can double in 7 hours. Lots of studies show adding bacteria only feeds bad bacteria, the kind of bacteria that kills and eats the very bacteria you're trying to grow.

OH!! I have a small bullfrog that was actually a tadpole last summer. He stuck around! I also added 1 new tadpole 4 days ago.

If you add those fish you'd have a large fish load. Adding more things isn't going to help. Not saying don't, just saying it requires more care.

 

[Waterbug]

You can start separate threads for each issue. Really hard to everything about ponds in a single thread.

 

[deadringer303]

Wow! Thanks for all of the Info. The reason I posted here is because I was tired of reading one thing on one website and a totally different thing on another. It's very annoying to spend hours upon hours am be evening confused than before I started researching. I was actually thinking of cutting out the liner and maki g the pond a minimum of 3' deep and about 12-14" deep on the shallow step. Would this up my ability to house 3 larger fish? I just want 3. And I would like to be able to see them and "interact" I guess. Not sure how I would attach a new liner though as the brick border is on top of the original liner and I have read that concrete usually cracks. In hindsight, I woul have made this pond bigger but I had no idea what I was getting into. I didn't even consider fish or frogs when I started. But now I want them.

I have been reading about ph and I dont get how to get gh and kh up without chemicals. I did read that those determine the stability of the ph. I don't mind putting in the work to maintain it but all of the mixed info on the interwebs gets confusing.

By the way, this is the first forum I have ever been involved in so thanks for the tip.

 

[addy1]

Very nice build you did, what a change in that part of your yard. That looks great

Just remember with forums it is just like the net, we all have our own opinions about what will work, what is necessary etc etc etc. Each of ours ponds are different, usually the only similar thing is they have water. Some have plants, some have fish and plants, some have just fish, some have just water lol
Then you add the area you live in a hot area has different issues then a temperate area, which is different than the cold north.

Adding some depth will help with your gallons. Which in turn will help with keeping your fish happier.

 

[ididntdoit99]

In hindsight, I woul have made this pond bigger but I had no idea what I was getting into.

Thats exactly how it starts deadringer... and the reason I have redug my pond every spring for the past three years. I think I'm finally done now.

 

[deadringer303]

Ok, so lets say I did dig it deeper. How would I attach a new liner? I wouldnt mind digging it deeper and then actually attaching the new liner up higher than ground level so that the water was around 4-5' above ground. IF I knew how. I have asked employees at home depot if they had any suggestions and no one had any. Or would I jsu thave to line it with cement?

 

[ididntdoit99]

I'm sure people around here have some better ideas, but right off hand, you could take your liner, put a bunch of grommets in it, and use concrete anchor screws to attach it to the bricks you have, then when you get it all attached, put another layer of brick over top to hide it.

 

[Waterbug]

The reason I posted here is because I was tired of reading one thing on one website and a totally different thing on another. It's very annoying to spend hours upon hours am be evening confused than before I started researching.

That's not going to change here. The problem is people say things like "well this worked in my pond" when in fact it was something other than this. If 100 people with green ponds put a Coke can into their pond 30 of them in a couple of months would swear the Coke can cleared their pond because ponds do clear from unseen chemicals produced by bacteria and macro algae. But the Coke can would get the credit.

I have been reading about ph and I dont get how to get gh and kh up without chemicals. I did read that those determine the stability of the ph. I don't mind putting in the work to maintain it but all of the mixed info on the interwebs gets confusing.

OK, that's the one thing that comes in bottle/bags that does something useful in pond. I couldn't remember it earlier. Here's my standard text on buffering most of what I learned on Koiphen from Roddy...

Measuring KH is important, more important than pH imo. Adding carbonate (baking soda, oyster shells, etc.) will stabilize pH and that's way better than pH crashes. Without any buffering pH can swing back and forth from 4.5 to 12 depending on conditions.

But if you want to take one more step...
Just adding carbonate can cause pH to climb above 9, which isn't the end of the world as long as you keep 0 ammonia and continue to keep KH up. But a more optimal pH would be lower and that can be done with GH, measures magnesium and calcium. At good GH levels, like 150-250 ppm, the excess carbonate ions will precipitate out of the water and keep pH at 8.3. As pH drops below 8.3 the precipitated carbonate ions will dissolve back into the water and raise pH right back to 8.3.

GH can be raised by adding a pound of calcium chloride flake (from hardware store for deicing, 77% calcium chloride, or swimming pool supply) per 1000 gals. And a pound of Epsom salt per 1000 gals to add magnesium.

Carbonate sources...
It's true that oyster shells, egg shells, human bones, etc, can all add carbonate. Lots of people like these things (except human bone) rather than baking soda. I guess they sound more natural. There is a downside that should be considered. None of those "natural" materials provide carbonate very quickly. You could you still have low KH, and/or a heavy rain could use up all available KH quickly and crash pH. The "natural" materials will eventually bring KH back, but you'd still be looking at pH swings.

Concrete is a really poor carbonate source as pH has to be very low to get any carbonate. This is why concrete lasts for decades and decades in water without dissolving.

Here's a calculator for figuring the amount of baking soda to add. Or you can just add some, measure KH and repeat until you get it where you want. Adding too much baking soda isn't really possible with in reason. In theory goldfish and koi can handle up to 10,000 ppm, but there's no reason to go above say 300 or 400. It can take a lot more baking soda than people think. Also, you have to keep measuring KH and adding baking soda every week, month, whatever.

 

[deadringer303]

That's not going to change here. The problem is people say things like "well this worked in my pond" when in fact it was something other than this. If 100 people with green ponds put a Coke can into their pond 30 of them in a couple of months would swear the Coke can cleared their pond because ponds do clear from unseen chemicals produced by bacteria and macro algae. But the Coke can would get the credit.


OK, that's the one thing that comes in bottle/bags that does something useful in pond. I couldn't remember it earlier. Here's my standard text on buffering most of what I learned on Koiphen from Roddy...

Measuring KH is important, more important than pH imo. Adding carbonate (baking soda, oyster shells, etc.) will stabilize pH and that's way better than pH crashes. Without any buffering pH can swing back and forth from 4.5 to 12 depending on conditions.

But if you want to take one more step...
Just adding carbonate can cause pH to climb above 9, which isn't the end of the world as long as you keep 0 ammonia and continue to keep KH up. But a more optimal pH would be lower and that can be done with GH, measures magnesium and calcium. At good GH levels, like 150-250 ppm, the excess carbonate ions will precipitate out of the water and keep pH at 8.3. As pH drops below 8.3 the precipitated carbonate ions will dissolve back into the water and raise pH right back to 8.3.

GH can be raised by adding a pound of calcium chloride flake (from hardware store for deicing, 77% calcium chloride, or swimming pool supply) per 1000 gals. And a pound of Epsom salt per 1000 gals to add magnesium.

Carbonate sources...
It's true that oyster shells, egg shells, human bones, etc, can all add carbonate. Lots of people like these things (except human bone) rather than baking soda. I guess they sound more natural. There is a downside that should be considered. None of those "natural" materials provide carbonate very quickly. You could you still have low KH, and/or a heavy rain could use up all available KH quickly and crash pH. The "natural" materials will eventually bring KH back, but you'd still be looking at pH swings.

Concrete is a really poor carbonate source as pH has to be very low to get any carbonate. This is why concrete lasts for decades and decades in water without dissolving.

Here's a calculator for figuring the amount of baking soda to add. Or you can just add some, measure KH and repeat until you get it where you want. Adding too much baking soda isn't really possible with in reason. In theory goldfish and koi can handle up to 10,000 ppm, but there's no reason to go above say 300 or 400. It can take a lot more baking soda than people think. Also, you have to keep measuring KH and adding baking soda every week, month, whatever.

So I need to add the baking soda for the KH AND the calcium chloride and epsom for GH? I actually have a new tub of Prestone Driveway Heat (de-icer). this contains contains calcium chloride, potassium chloride, water, sodium chloride and calcium bromide according to the HD website. I assume this is not what I want?

 

[Waterbug]

I'm sure people around here have some better ideas, but right off hand, you could take your liner, put a bunch of grommets in it, and use concrete anchor screws to attach it to the bricks you have, then when you get it all attached, put another layer of brick over top to hide it.

Not sure if you mean attach to the vertical side of the brick or the top? But yes, something along this line.

Couple of ways I would go...

If you wanted to keep the brick cap you can drill holes into the vertical wall as high up as you like and use anchor screws to attach use plastic bender board around the perimeter of the pond. Then you can nail the new liner to the wood using aluminum roofing nails or stainless steel screws. You can cover that with another piece of bender board for looks. However, I'm not big on anchors for brick because they do push out and it could crack the brick. Not saying it will, but I worry. Instead I use epoxy or anchor cement and a short length of threaded rod (from the electrical dept, sold in 10' lengths). Drill through the bender board into the brick so the holes line up.

An easier way, if you didn't mind loosing the brick cap is to lay the liner over the top of the brick. Just like a regular pond. after the water is added you can put whatever cap you like over the liner.

 

[HARO]

Deadringer; You're getting some good advice here, and I just want to add one more suggestion: put that waterlily in the deepest part of tour pond. It will do a lot better there.
As for deepening the pond, the only way I can see is to cut out the existing liner, dig as deep as you want to go, and put in a new liner. Lay it on top of the existing bricks, and mortar another layer of brick or stone on top to hold it. :twocents:
John

 

[ididntdoit99]

Not sure if you mean attach to the vertical side of the brick or the top? But yes, something along this line.

Couple of ways I would go...

If you wanted to keep the brick cap you can drill holes into the vertical wall as high up as you like and use anchor screws to attach use plastic bender board around the perimeter of the pond. Then you can nail the new liner to the wood using aluminum roofing nails or stainless steel screws. You can cover that with another piece of bender board for looks. However, I'm not big on anchors for brick because they do push out and it could crack the brick. Not saying it will, but I worry. Instead I use epoxy or anchor cement and a short length of threaded rod (from the electrical dept, sold in 10' lengths). Drill through the bender board into the brick so the holes line up.

An easier way, if you didn't mind loosing the brick cap is to lay the liner over the top of the brick. Just like a regular pond. after the water is added you can put whatever cap you like over the liner.

Horizontal was what i was thinking, I liked the security of wrapping it over the edge and attaching it to the top, and then covering that up with another layer of brick for a cap, and what haro said, mortar the new layer on top, I just added grommets and screws for extra security. But yes, attaching it vertically with the bender board is a good idea too. then you dont have to worry about sandwiching it between two bricks or addoing any more additioanl brickwork that what is already done.


And ditto in that lily... I thought that when I first looked at the picture, but wasnt sure if maybe that was already the deepest part of the pond, not sure how big that pot was.

 

[Waterbug]

So I need to add the baking soda for the KH AND the calcium chloride and epsom for GH?

Correct.

I actually have a new tub of Prestone Driveway Heat (de-icer). this contains contains calcium chloride, potassium chloride, water, sodium chloride and calcium bromide according to the HD website. I assume this is not what I want?

That sounds like the stuff you want. I would check the percentages of each compound to make sure it's a good source of calcium chloride because that's what you're after. Potassium chloride is also called "muriate of potash" and used as a fertilizer. I once put 5lbs of potash into a 30 gal tank and hatched goldfish eggs in it and grew the fry to about 1/2". Fish were fine, grew to normal adults. 5 lbs in 30 gal is waaay a lot, but this was an experiment. Sodium chloride is salt which is fine as long as not too much is added, check the percentage. Calcium bromide is used in aquarium additives for buffering.

You can get purer sources of calcium chloride if you'd feel uncomfortable adding "deicer". You should research to make sure you're comfortable with your understanding. A forum is a place to get info on what to research further. It's like getting a cake recipe, you still need a good understanding of the process to produce a good cake.