New pond liner and filter advice please?


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Hi to you all.
I’ve recently moved house and have 2 Koi and 6 goldfish in a holding pool with my old green genie filter.
We have a digger in next weekend to dig a new pond.
It’s probably gonna be 4m x 3m and a metre deep one end stepping back to 200mm ish for wildlife to get in.
The pond will be up against my garage which has electrics.
Questions are what is the best way forward regards type of liner and underlay as I would like to have stones and pebbles on the liner rather than see black liner.
Also the filter system. Some say stay well clear or pressure filters and go filter box like Evolution etc.
So some of your best advice would be very much appreciated thank you!
Chris
 
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I’m new to the forum please be nice
Only nice people here!

The standard most used liner material you'll find is 45 mil EPDM with it's matching non-woven underlayment.
Some, who like stones in their pond, will add another layer of underlayment material on top of the liner to protect it from the stones. It also provides a great place for beneficial bacteria to colonize.

There's another liner material called HDRPE, which is much lighter in weight and costs less.
I got my last HDRPE liner online from American Talapia. A 20 ft X 15 ft piece was $140 (U.S.), with free shipping.

As far as filtration, I tried a lot of them over the years. Store bought, homemade, etc.
A lot of time and money wasted.
Then I was introduced to bog filtration by @addy1.
You'll find that a lot of us here only filter with an up-flow wetland bog. It cleans the water and provides a nice area full of plants. The big plus is that a bog is 99% maintenance free. No filter pads to clean. A huge plus!
 
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Only nice people here!

The standard most used liner material you'll find is 45 mil EPDM with it's matching non-woven underlayment.
Some, who like stones in their pond, will add another layer of underlayment material on top of the liner to protect it from the stones. It also provides a great place for beneficial bacteria to colonize.

There's another liner material called HDRPE, which is much lighter in weight and costs less.
I got my last HDRPE liner online from American Talapia. A 20 ft X 15 ft piece was $140 (U.S.), with free shipping.

As far as filtration, I tried a lot of them over the years. Store bought, homemade, etc.
A lot of time and money wasted.
Then I was introduced to bog filtration by @addy1.
You'll find that a lot of us here only filter with an up-flow wetland bog. It cleans the water and provides a nice area full of plants. The big plus is that a bog is 99% maintenance free. No filter pads to clean. A huge plus!
Great advice thank you.
Can you recommend places for info on bog filtering please and it’s design?
 

j.w

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@Magicno1
Lots of great info here from people who have done bogs. @addy1 has tons of info on a thread she started.
Here is the link: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/bog-building.6894/
 
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After you check out addy's bog showcase, check out my bog add-on thread...

 
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Only nice people here!

The standard most used liner material you'll find is 45 mil EPDM with it's matching non-woven underlayment.
Some, who like stones in their pond, will add another layer of underlayment material on top of the liner to protect it from the stones. It also provides a great place for beneficial bacteria to colonize.

There's another liner material called HDRPE, which is much lighter in weight and costs less.
I got my last HDRPE liner online from American Talapia. A 20 ft X 15 ft piece was $140 (U.S.), with free shipping.

As far as filtration, I tried a lot of them over the years. Store bought, homemade, etc.
A lot of time and money wasted.
Then I was introduced to bog filtration by @addy1.
You'll find that a lot of us here only filter with an up-flow wetland bog. It cleans the water and provides a nice area full of plants. The big plus is that a bog is 99% maintenance free. No filter pads to clean. A huge plus!

regards a bog and planting. Most plants listed in that thread seem to require non water logged ground. Do any of you have advice for planting in a bog please?
 
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regards a bog and planting. Most plants listed in that thread seem to require non water logged ground. Do any of you have advice for planting in a bog please?
 

brokensword

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regards a bog and planting. Most plants listed in that thread seem to require non water logged ground. Do any of you have advice for planting in a bog please?
Creeping Jenny, watercress, canna, arrow plant, yellow flag iris, Louisiana black gamecock iris, parrot's feather, penny wort, forget me nots,horsetail, papyrus, mini horsetail, hosta, impatiens, and monkey flower: think I got all of them (in my bog)!
 

addy1

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water willow, pickerel rush, lizard tail, obedient plant, marsh bentomy, mint, lirope
 
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I’m new to the forum please be nice
Thats asking a lot
Most here have a bog filter or want one
EPDM rubber or
HPDRE i believe it is
I like 8 oz non woven needle punch geotextile under and over the liner
 
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Getting close to finishing my bog!!!!
There seems to be conflicts on types of pea gravel. Some good for fish some not. Any advice?
Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Some have mentioned Anoxic filtration so anybody used this method?
I will still press forward with my bog tho!
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
Chris
 

addy1

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Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Mine has been running for 10 years, 2.5 feet deep turned off in the winter, about 5 months, it never stinks or become anaerobic, if it does without me knowing it has made no difference when I turn it on in the spring. It is just pea gravel and plants
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
No issues with clogging or ammonia levels. I draw the water about a foot off the bottom of the pond. I do have a leaf basket before the pump but never clean it all summer.
 
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Mine has been running for 10 years, 2.5 feet deep turned off in the winter, about 5 months, it never stinks or become anaerobic, if it does without me knowing it has made no difference when I turn it on in the spring. It is just pea gravel and plants

No issues with clogging or ammonia levels. I draw the water about a foot off the bottom of the pond. I do have a leaf basket before the pump but never clean it all summer.
Thank you.
Seems a lot of advice comes from people who have never had a bog so reading your thread and what you have just said makes me confident!
Why do you turn off in the winter?
 
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I've done extensive research on wetland filtration and some research on anoxic. Most people on "other forums" (I'm pretty sure you mean koiphen!) seem to not like bog filters because:

1. They used to be designed really poorly. Instead of improving design, they moved onto other solutions.

2. Bogs have to be massive to properly filter a dedicated koi pond, and no one who has a DKP wants to give that kind of space to filtration when they could just make the pond bigger and stuff more fish in it.

3. They're not expensive or high-tech enough. I'm not even joking about this. There is a pervasive mindset in the DKP world that is biased towards technology and allergic to anything "natural." If it doesn't look like it belongs in a NASA control room, it's not good enough.

No filter is perfect, though, and there is some truth to the criticism of the bog filter. Folks who have cloudy water and then suddenly clear water after installing a bog filter have that because the bog is now doing fine mechanical filtration (ie. clogging your filter). Might work forever if you're lucky, but doesn't work for DKP folks trying to stretch the limit of how many lbs. of fish you can fit in a gallon of water.

And if you want a lot of messy fish like koi, then you need a lot of filtration, and NASA-style tech can do what a bog can do in a tiny fraction of the space. Requires a lot more maintenance, though.

So, if you understand the mindset of the DKPers and garden ponders, you can start to understand why each group has its biases. These are very different types of ponds where the same solutions are not always appropriate.

As for anoxic, I think it's a great idea. It's very "bog like" in that it's easy to construct and also easy to pull apart and maintain should you ever need to.

If you want crystal clear water, though, you'll really need to have your prefiltration dialed with anoxic, as the substrate won't be doing any mechanical filtration for you.

Most garden ponds have pretty weak prefilters and end up with crystal clear water because their bogs are doing the rest of the work (a "no no" in the DKP world).
 
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addy1

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Thank you.
Seems a lot of advice comes from people who have never had a bog so reading your thread and what you have just said makes me confident!
Why do you turn off in the winter?
We freeze here and I have a lot of surface area in the bog. It brings the temperature down on the pond when we get cold. And I have a external pump, if the power goes out it freezes and dies. And if it does not go out and we have some real cold weather I could get a ice dam that will drain the pond.

I actually enjoy the pond down time. In the spring fire it up, every time it runs with no issue, pond becomes crystal clear within a few days. Usually the bog plants have started growing before I even get it fired up.
 

brokensword

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Getting close to finishing my bog!!!!
There seems to be conflicts on types of pea gravel. Some good for fish some not. Any advice?
Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Some have mentioned Anoxic filtration so anybody used this method?
I will still press forward with my bog tho!
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
Chris
I prefilter, mainly because I wanted to get rid of the fines, but you'll not starve the bog; the bacteria there will still get their ammonia for conversion. I don't NEED to prefilter but since I have an underwater cam (which just died, btw), I'd rather see the fish better as the fines clutter the feed as well as reflect any sunlight.

You CAN include a cleanout system for you bog (it's what I've done, as well as others) if you're worried re clogging. Sort of an insurance policy that hopefully you'll never use.

Re bog gravel; use 3/8 pea gravel (or at least, smooth, rounded stone--NOT anything that has an edge as this type will compress and lock together, foiling the bog's process of 'upflow wetland filtration'.
 
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Getting close to finishing my bog!!!!
There seems to be conflicts on types of pea gravel. Some good for fish some not. Any advice?
Also one or two people on other forums say steer clear of bog filters as they can clog up and become anaerobic.
Some have mentioned Anoxic filtration so anybody used this method?
I will still press forward with my bog tho!
Have any of you had trouble with clogging and ammonia levels? Also could you use a pre filter to remove some solids or will that render the bog useless?
Chris
I was just doing some small reading on the anoxic filter i can assure you. Its going to clog faster then a bog. From what i saw anyways i didn't disect it all they seemed to do was to use clay a plant and a pot. We all know clay is beneficial but it does fall apart. And fluorite i used as my substrate in my planted tank. Its a chip form in the clay family substrate. So other then that method giving plants what they grow in i don't see an advantage the bog being STONE it has no benefit to plants it just channels the water and gives plants a base to root in. The plants then are forced to take what they need to survive from the water ONLY the fish waste , plant decay. And if you saw the mound literally 3 feet high 6 feet wide of plants i just ripped out . There's no lack nutrients. Heck look for your self 4 years old and only seems to get better every year. I honestly think the koi anti bogers don't want to believe they spend all the time and money on the filtration systems when if you give mother nature a stage shell out stage you every time.
 
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@GBBUDD: plants are optional in anoxic filtration, same as bog. The ammonia conversion takes place via the attraction between negatively and positively charged atoms as they pass through the filter.
 

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