New to group - Koi dying

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Hello
I have a 250 gallon pond. Last year 5 of my 6 inch koi died for no reason and with no signs of any problems all within 3 days of each other. 1 of them survived. I have tried a few times to introduce a couple of new koi that are about 3 inches long. They always die within 48 hours. I have gone through a dozen fish. I have tested my water for ph, ammonia, nitrate and phosphate. I also add slime coat before adding the new fish. Also added salt a month or so ago. My original fish keeps on swimming but the additions always die right away. Any help or suggestions? Thanks
 

sissy

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How deep is your pond and could the water be getting to hot for them .Koi can die of shock if they do not acclimate to the temp of the water before they go in .How about oxygen and what kind of water city water has to be treated .Pond may be to small for more than 1 koi .Not enough oxygen maybe
 
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20 inches deep, partially shadded. City water that runs through my water softener.( I use potasium and not salt in it) . I have a large waterfall and a seperate water sprayer on the pond
 

sissy

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Softener does not clean out chlorine and other stuff they add to the water it just makes it soft and you may want to check the temp of your water when the sun is on the pond .20 inches is not very deep for koi and my pond is now 4 1/2 feet deep to keep the fish cool .I have to provide shade for my fish with a shade sail as the sun is on my pond from around noon time until evening and i know right now temp of my water is close to 80 degrees even with the shade provided .
 

fishin4cars

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I have tested my water for ph, ammonia, nitrate and phosphate.
So the PH was closer to 5 or 10 on the scale,
ammonia read 0. .25, .50, 1.0, 2.0?
Nitrate 0 20 40 60 80 100?
phosphate.??
Do you test for Gh, KH, Nitrites? If so how do they look. Exact #'s are needed to be able to help. PH and ammonia can directly effect each other, Oxygen is effected by heat. Ammonia is effected by PH, 250 gallons, what is the temp changing per day, 1 degree, ten degrees, twenty degrees?
honestly, 250 gallon shallow pond is really not a good HOME for Koi, goldfish are far better suited for a small pond. Koi can be kept in that size pond but must have really good water quality. IMO that means changing at least 20% a week in that size pond.
 

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I never understood the salt part because it seems like a lot of salt when they calculate it and these are not salt water fish .I just add a little and leave it at that .I think all total i may have put in my pond 4 cups of salt .I read some where that it should be like 50 lbs of salt for the amount of water then some of the koi specialist say no salt and some swear by salt .Kinda gets you no one can make up there minds .Just like some say skippy filters work and others say they don't .
 
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The trick has always been to learn a subject and make an informed decision. Simply hearing other people's opinions has always been a fairly worthless endeavour. Ask Columbus.
 
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So I got a new test kit yesterday and this is what I found. Water temp varies from 71-75 degrees through the day
PH 9.0 or higher
Ammonia 8.0
Nitrate .2 or less
Phosphate 0-.25

I am assuming the Ammonia is off the chart. I am testing my tap water now as that is what I fill the pond with
My tap water reads
PH 8.0
Ammonia 4.0
nitrite 0
Phosphate 0
 
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Those numbers are pretty alarming. Now would be a good time to research the internet to learn about the effects of ammonia and nitrite on fish. Way too large a subject to describe in a forum. Best I can do is give you a few points to research.

First off I'm a bit skeptical on your ammonia numbers since it is so high and it doesn't sound like you have any fish. However other things, like nitrite, do kind of confirm high ammonia. So ammonia could actually be that high.

Here's a very good table for seeing how toxic your ammonia level is in your pond. Enter your ammonia level, 8, into the "Enter Total Ammonia" field and click "Recalculate Table" button. For your water temp and pH you'll see your water is extremely toxic to fish. However, if you added dechlorinator it can turn the toxic ammonia into safe ammonia. Your test is for total ammonia, both safe and toxic. The table in the link is normally used to break total ammonia into safe and toxic parts. But the dechlorinator changes that and there's no way to tell safe and toxic levels without specific test kits. So it's impossible to tell if ammonia is actually your problem, but that's where the smart money is.

In your original post you said one fish lived. Is it still alive? If yes I would question your test results. Is your test kit strips or drops of liquid? Strips can go bad.

You can contact your water supplier to try and confirm the 4.0 ppm ammonia level. That's really high. If the supplier says ammonia should be something like 0.4 ppm you know your test kit is bad or you're using it incorrectly or there's something serious bad with your water delivery system.

You can also take a water sample to a pet store and have them test it.

A test for nitrite would be useful in figuring out the ammonia issue and also whether that's toxic also. Nitrite is what you get after bacteria converts ammonia. Another kind of bacteria converts the nitrite into nitrate. Having such a high ammonia level makes me think there is also a high nitrite level which is also very toxic to fish. Or did you miss type "Nitrate" and it should have been "Nitrite"?
Nitrate .2 or less

Assuming all fish are currently dead and the ammonia test of your source water is really 4 ppm I would look into serious bio filtering. Things like "Trickle Tower", "Bakki Shower Filter", "Moving Bed Filter". At the level of ammonia you're reporting and your desire to keep a lot of Koi (or any Koi) in such a small pond means you have to be serious about fish keeping or you can expect to continue killing fish. You have the exact same conditions that high end Koi ponds have, huge fish load. That requires serious learning, filters and testing. You must stay away from all the typical toy filters normally targeted to water gardens. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about a normal mass market toy filter will say something like "for ponds up to 250 gals". For your pond and desired fish load you would want a filter that said "for ponds up to 3,000 gal", or maybe more. But filters that say something like "for ponds up to X gals" are generally going to be very poor filters for your case. Filters have to be sized by fish load, not pond size.
 
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I'm really surprised that the water temperature is not swinging more during the day. For the size of the pond, I have to agree that you do NOT want to try adding any more koi. Remember that a healthy koi can grow up to about 3 feet in length! Stick with goldfish and shubunkins for that size of pond.

Another matter of confusion is chlorine versus chloramine. Both are commonly used in city water, and both should be treated with de-chlor when refilling your pond. The major difference is that chlorine can evaporate out of the water after about 24 hours, while chloramine remains in the water and will build to higher levels every time you add more water. Dechlorinator is very cheap (I get a powder for $8 that treats something like 40,000 gallons), so there's really no reason not to use it every time to protect the health of your fish.

@sissy - I'm the same way about salt. There's so much confusion over the matter, I just stay away from it completely. Never used any salt in my ponds, and my fish are perfectly healthy.
 
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Hi Liftinglarge and Welcome! I will try not to duplicate what was said above and agree with pretty much everything that was pointed out to you. First off don't add any more fish until you feel the water is safe. This is the number one rule of keeping fish in ponds. Also I have found that koi don't like high ph's whereas goldfish are much more tolerant to higher ph's. My guess is your original fish acclimated, but your new fish didn't like it. My pond is 600 gallons and it is way too small to keep Koi so I would suggest not to try adding more Koi. Once you feel your water is okay I would introduce a couple small goldfish and see how they do. Experienced ponders can push the bio-load, but they know exactly what to do if something is wrong. If you are a novice you should start much more cautiously. Re the salt conversation. i will use a salt bath occasionally for a sick fish, but I never add salt except for the spring when fish need to improve their slime coats coming out of winter. Good luck with your pond!
 
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  • So I got a new test kit. ( liquid and not paper)
  • PH 9.0 or higher- Color was a little darker that color on paper
  • Phosphate less than .25ppm
  • 0ppm
  • ammonia .25-.5 ppm
  • Tap water to fill pond is 6.0ph and ammonia is at .5ppm
 
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In my opinion the ph is too high for koi. Also ammonia should be at 0. I would do regular water changes of 15-20% until the ammonia comes down to zero. If your pond has cycled, you have something introducing dissolved oxygen into the water like a waterfall or airstone, and you have a decent filtration system then your pond can handle 10 to 15 inches of fish, but no large fish like koi. If you are not familiar with the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate pond cycle I suggest to read up on it. Also plants will help your pond cycle and lower the ph. Something is raising your ph like a non portland cement product or limestone that is dissolving if it starting lower and going up. Good luck!
 

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