OFFER: American Frogbit (Limnobium spongia) (you pay shipping or will trade for plastic planters)

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I'm now more upset since the store was very rude to me when I asked them if they could have made a mistake and shared the links and photos I shared here with them. I also have an obsessive drive to uncover the truth (about everything) and lots of time to kill. Soon we will know, for sure, if there are two species of this stuff and if it's actually disputed or not by anyone of any authority.

You know what they say about hell having no fury... I may not be much of a woman, but I wouldn't suggest one project any scorn in my direction... :stop:
 
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Hmmm... It will be interesting to see what the final response is. (For what it's worth, I recently also had a VERY bad interaction with Pondmegastore regarding mislabeling of and/or shipping incorrect plants. It's now in the hands of the BBB, and I will never recommend or order from them again)
 
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Hmmm... It will be interesting to see what the final response is. (For what it's worth, I recently also had a VERY bad interaction with Pondmegastore regarding mislabeling of and/or shipping incorrect plants. It's now in the hands of the BBB, and I will never recommend or order from them again)
I knew they had bad customer service going in so none of this hit me by surprise. They are the only place that has actual reasonable shipping fees. Guy that owns it (and probably shouldn't be doing customer service) is mentally disturbed, and that's OK (I suspect he's barely functional, mental health-wise). I just want to know what I actually have. Either way I do love the plant and can highly recommend it for anyone with a small pond that needs fast shade.
 
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I knew they had bad customer service going in so none of this hit me by surprise. They are the only place that has actual reasonable shipping fees. Guy that owns it (and probably shouldn't be doing customer service) is mentally disturbed, and that's OK (I suspect he's barely functional, mental health-wise). I just want to know what I actually have. Either way I do love the plant and can highly recommend it for anyone with a small pond that needs fast shade.
It's just so strange, because I've been ordering from them for years & have always been more than satisfied. Never had a problem until now. I'm of the same mind-set, that I just want to know what the heck I have! Sigh... Sometimes I very much miss living in a more populated area & having the plethora of options when it came to buying plants (either for my regular garden, or my water garden!) Living rural is nice, but it does have its limitations.
 
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It's just so strange, because I've been ordering from them for years & have always been more than satisfied. Never had a problem until now. I'm of the same mind-set, that I just want to know what the heck I have! Sigh... Sometimes I very much miss living in a more populated area & having the plethora of options when it came to buying plants (either for my regular garden, or my water garden!) Living rural is nice, but it does have its limitations.
Agree. I also miss Taco Bell. The little things, lol. Still not worth living in a city for me though. I love living in small town Vermont 99% of the time.
 
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If anyone is curious as to the outcome of my email, I did get a response from Carol Kelloff from the Smithsonian Institute, who forwarded my question to Cavan Allen of the USDA Agricultural Research Service, who said:

"That looks to me like L. laevigatum. L. spongia is the one with the obviously cordate leaf base and longer petioles. I'd still be curious what Dr. Haynes has to say."

So, that's the first answer, and it sounds like I may get a response from someone named Dr. Haynes, which I assume to be the Dr. Haynes of the University of Alabama Herbarium, who focuses his research on the systematics of aquatic vascular plants.

I also received a response from Ann Perry of the USDA Agricultural Research Service who inquired for me with the scientists at the ARS National Plant Germplasm Laboratory who had this to say:

"From a nomenclatural standpoint, there are seven names in Limnobium Rich. that have been validly published. The genus name has also been used for a group of mosses, but there it is an illegitimate later homonym. Two species of Limnobium are currently accepted. Limnobium spongia is native to North America. Limnobium laevigatum is native to Central and South America. It is sometimes treated as a subspecies of L. spongia, which is probably why the vendor said there was only one species of Limnobium."

She also forwarded my questions to Dr. Harlan Svoboda, of the U.S. National Arboretum, so I could still receive more clarification, but it looks so far as if what I have is the South American species, Limnobium laevigatum. :confused:

I'm going to make one more attempt to educate the seller (because it seems like I should at least try before filing a complaint against them with the BBB) and I'm also going to reach out to the California Invasive Plant Council and let them know that their inaccurate web page is being used by an aquatic plant seller who is trying not to take responsibility for selling the wrong, non-native species, Limnobium laevigatum, as Limnobium spongia to people using their website as his defense, and try to educate them as well and convince them to update their website so pondmegastore can't use it as an excuse to sell the wrong plant to people anymore. Here's my draft email to them so far - I'm holding off on sending it until I get more responses from all the organizations I emailed in case they have further clarification or useful information I should include:

Hello. I hope you will take the time to discuss with me the misinformation on your webpage on Limnobium Rich. (Frogbit).
You see, I have recently purchased some Limnobium spongia from a business (not in California), and they sent me Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit/South American Frogbit/West Indian Spongeplant) instead of Limnobium spongia (American Frogbit/American Spongeplant). When I pointed out that they had made a mistake and sent me the wrong plant, they told me that Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit/South American Frogbit/West Indian Spongeplant) doesn't exist and that Limnobium laevigatum is just a synonym for Limnobium spongia. They referenced your webpage at https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/limnobium-laevigatum-profile/ as proof that they sent me the correct plant. They swear that there is only one species of Limnobium because your website says so.
I have since reached out to several international organizations on the matter and have been assured that there are in fact two species of Limnobium: Limnobium laevigatum and Limnobium spongia, the former being a South American native species with the latter being a North American native species. Experts in the field of taxonomy are quite positive that both species exist.
It is quite easy to distinguish between the two species as the Limnobium laevigatum has a green underside with larger, honey-comb like cells, a shallower basal notch, and a more rounded shape, while Limnobium spongia has a reddish-brown tinted underside with smaller cells, a more lobed/heart-like shape, and is also larger. See https://idtools.org/uploads/idtools/350/239/Limnobium.07164.JPG for a side by side comparison. I'm sure if you look at samples of your invasive Frogbit in California, you will find it to be Limnobium laevigatum, as all the example photos I have found of the California invasive depict Limnobium laevigatum (no red-brown on the undersides of leaves and round/oval in shape).
What this comes down to is that there is a widely-known dishonest commercial aquatic plant seller online in the USA that is selling the non-native Limnobium laevigatum as Limnobium spongia on their website, and using your website as their defense in doing so. I'm reaching out to you because I feel that with the number of customers who have had a problem with getting the wrong species from this seller (the business has been repeatedly reported to the Better Business Bureau for their bad business practices), and due to the invasive nature of Limnobium laevigatum, it would be prudent of you to update your website so that it reflects the scientifically recognized two separate species of Limnobium Rich., both Limnobium laevigatum and Limnobium spongia (which are both likely to be invasive there even if only one is currently present), and note that the two are not synonymous as your website indicates.
It may be that California has not yet seen an invasion of the North American native Limnobium spongia, and therefore hasn't been made aware that there is a native species of Limnobium in North America, since it is not native to California. The invasive plant you have in California is Limnobium laevigatum, which is what is pictured on your webpage. For clarification, please refer to https://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/get_cpn.pl?30986&expand=1 section titled "Editorial Comments 2", which states: "Correspondence 2 indicates that, according to Dean Kelch (pers. comm. to Baldwin), Fred Hrusa has determined that relevant California material belongs to Limnobium laevigatum (Humb. & Bonpl. ex Willd.) Heine and not Limnobium spongia (Bosc) Rich. ex Steud., and that the latter name has therefore been misapplied in California [there is one record in CCH labeled Limnobium spongia, but it is from material grown in a greenhouse in CA], a situation opposite that presented in The Jepson Manual [Ed. 2]."
You can also see that the California Department of Food and Agriculture has updated their website to indicate that there are two species of Limnobium at https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/ipc/encycloweedia/weedinfo/winfo_table-sciname.html. The USDA also has them listed as separate species, and specifically lists Limnobium laevigatum as a sub-species of Limnobium spongia when incorrectly referred to as synonymous with Limnobium spongia: "Limnobium spongia ssp. laevigatum". See https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LILA7 and https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LISP2 and note the Synonyms and Classification tabs. You can also refer to the Subordinate Taxa tab at https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LIMNO which depicts the two species on a map, clearly showing that the Limnobium in California is Limnobium laevigatum (West Indian Spongeplant).
I hope you will look into this matter and update your website to reflect the scientifically accepted taxonomy regarding Limnobium Richard and remove the references to it as Limnobium spongia, which it is not. Your webmaster could simply change the title line to "Limnobium laevigatum" and the synonymous line to say, "Sometimes confused with Limnobium spongia" or list some accepted synonyms such as "Hydromystria laevigata" and "Hydromystria stolonifera". The rest of the webpage appears to be correct.
I'm sure the California Invasive Plant Council does not want to be associated with a known dishonest aquatic plant seller who is trying not to take responsibility for selling the wrong, non-native species to people across the country, including to customers with good intentions and trying to not introduce non-natives to their gardens – people living where Limnobium spongia is native and Limnobium laevigatum is not.
Here are some informative links on which you can learn about the two different species of Limnobium Rich. and learn how to distinguish one from the other:
I hope you will consider this important issue and make the necessary changes on your website as quickly as possible, before anyone else is shipped a non-native species!
 

TheFishGuy

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If anyone is curious as to the outcome of my email, I did get a response from Carol Kelloff from the Smithsonian Institute, who forwarded my question to Cavan Allen of the USDA Agricultural Research Service, who said:

"That looks to me like L. laevigatum. L. spongia is the one with the obviously cordate leaf base and longer petioles. I'd still be curious what Dr. Haynes has to say."

So, that's the first answer, and it sounds like I may get a response from someone named Dr. Haynes, which I assume to be the Dr. Haynes of the University of Alabama Herbarium, who focuses his research on the systematics of aquatic vascular plants.

I also received a response from Ann Perry of the USDA Agricultural Research Service who inquired for me with the scientists at the ARS National Plant Germplasm Laboratory who had this to say:

"From a nomenclatural standpoint, there are seven names in Limnobium Rich. that have been validly published. The genus name has also been used for a group of mosses, but there it is an illegitimate later homonym. Two species of Limnobium are currently accepted. Limnobium spongia is native to North America. Limnobium laevigatum is native to Central and South America. It is sometimes treated as a subspecies of L. spongia, which is probably why the vendor said there was only one species of Limnobium."

She also forwarded my questions to Dr. Harlan Svoboda, of the U.S. National Arboretum, so I could still receive more clarification, but it looks so far as if what I have is the South American species, Limnobium laevigatum. :confused:

I'm going to make one more attempt to educate the seller (because it seems like I should at least try before filing a complaint against them with the BBB) and I'm also going to reach out to the California Invasive Plant Council and let them know that their inaccurate web page is being used by an aquatic plant seller who is trying not to take responsibility for selling the wrong, non-native species, Limnobium laevigatum, as Limnobium spongia to people using their website as his defense, and try to educate them as well and convince them to update their website so pondmegastore can't use it as an excuse to sell the wrong plant to people anymore. Here's my draft email to them so far - I'm holding off on sending it until I get more responses from all the organizations I emailed in case they have further clarification or useful information I should include:

Hello. I hope you will take the time to discuss with me the misinformation on your webpage on Limnobium Rich. (Frogbit).
You see, I have recently purchased some Limnobium spongia from a business (not in California), and they sent me Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit/South American Frogbit/West Indian Spongeplant) instead of Limnobium spongia (American Frogbit/American Spongeplant). When I pointed out that they had made a mistake and sent me the wrong plant, they told me that Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit/South American Frogbit/West Indian Spongeplant) doesn't exist and that Limnobium laevigatum is just a synonym for Limnobium spongia. They referenced your webpage at https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/limnobium-laevigatum-profile/ as proof that they sent me the correct plant. They swear that there is only one species of Limnobium because your website says so.
I have since reached out to several international organizations on the matter and have been assured that there are in fact two species of Limnobium: Limnobium laevigatum and Limnobium spongia, the former being a South American native species with the latter being a North American native species. Experts in the field of taxonomy are quite positive that both species exist.
It is quite easy to distinguish between the two species as the Limnobium laevigatum has a green underside with larger, honey-comb like cells, a shallower basal notch, and a more rounded shape, while Limnobium spongia has a reddish-brown tinted underside with smaller cells, a more lobed/heart-like shape, and is also larger. See https://idtools.org/uploads/idtools/350/239/Limnobium.07164.JPG for a side by side comparison. I'm sure if you look at samples of your invasive Frogbit in California, you will find it to be Limnobium laevigatum, as all the example photos I have found of the California invasive depict Limnobium laevigatum (no red-brown on the undersides of leaves and round/oval in shape).
What this comes down to is that there is a widely-known dishonest commercial aquatic plant seller online in the USA that is selling the non-native Limnobium laevigatum as Limnobium spongia on their website, and using your website as their defense in doing so. I'm reaching out to you because I feel that with the number of customers who have had a problem with getting the wrong species from this seller (the business has been repeatedly reported to the Better Business Bureau for their bad business practices), and due to the invasive nature of Limnobium laevigatum, it would be prudent of you to update your website so that it reflects the scientifically recognized two separate species of Limnobium Rich., both Limnobium laevigatum and Limnobium spongia (which are both likely to be invasive there even if only one is currently present), and note that the two are not synonymous as your website indicates.
It may be that California has not yet seen an invasion of the North American native Limnobium spongia, and therefore hasn't been made aware that there is a native species of Limnobium in North America, since it is not native to California. The invasive plant you have in California is Limnobium laevigatum, which is what is pictured on your webpage. For clarification, please refer to https://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/get_cpn.pl?30986&expand=1 section titled "Editorial Comments 2", which states: "Correspondence 2 indicates that, according to Dean Kelch (pers. comm. to Baldwin), Fred Hrusa has determined that relevant California material belongs to Limnobium laevigatum (Humb. & Bonpl. ex Willd.) Heine and not Limnobium spongia (Bosc) Rich. ex Steud., and that the latter name has therefore been misapplied in California [there is one record in CCH labeled Limnobium spongia, but it is from material grown in a greenhouse in CA], a situation opposite that presented in The Jepson Manual [Ed. 2]."
You can also see that the California Department of Food and Agriculture has updated their website to indicate that there are two species of Limnobium at https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/ipc/encycloweedia/weedinfo/winfo_table-sciname.html. The USDA also has them listed as separate species, and specifically lists Limnobium laevigatum as a sub-species of Limnobium spongia when incorrectly referred to as synonymous with Limnobium spongia: "Limnobium spongia ssp. laevigatum". See https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LILA7 and https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LISP2 and note the Synonyms and Classification tabs. You can also refer to the Subordinate Taxa tab at https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=LIMNO which depicts the two species on a map, clearly showing that the Limnobium in California is Limnobium laevigatum (West Indian Spongeplant).
I hope you will look into this matter and update your website to reflect the scientifically accepted taxonomy regarding Limnobium Richard and remove the references to it as Limnobium spongia, which it is not. Your webmaster could simply change the title line to "Limnobium laevigatum" and the synonymous line to say, "Sometimes confused with Limnobium spongia" or list some accepted synonyms such as "Hydromystria laevigata" and "Hydromystria stolonifera". The rest of the webpage appears to be correct.
I'm sure the California Invasive Plant Council does not want to be associated with a known dishonest aquatic plant seller who is trying not to take responsibility for selling the wrong, non-native species to people across the country, including to customers with good intentions and trying to not introduce non-natives to their gardens – people living where Limnobium spongia is native and Limnobium laevigatum is not.
Here are some informative links on which you can learn about the two different species of Limnobium Rich. and learn how to distinguish one from the other:
I hope you will consider this important issue and make the necessary changes on your website as quickly as possible, before anyone else is shipped a non-native species!
amazing! hopefully the company will recognise the differences, but I am still enjoying my non native frogbit, and the fish love nibbling on :)
 
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It looks exactly like the plant I got at the local pond store as a hitchhiker with my water hyacinths and water lettuce. I thought it was baby water hyacinths at first. But it is clearly different now and has been growing. It is currently the fastest grower in my pond. Maybe late summer fall is its prime growing season.

I would slow down on complaining about the store to the BBB if it is a plant commonly found at other pond stores, like mine. Especially if you want to be able to shop there in the future. They are probably doing the best they can and passing on what information they thought was correct. No excuse on their part for rudeness. Most people would not have the determination and detail oriented identification you have pursued to get a correct ID on your plants. If they sold you the "wrong" plant and you do not want it, you could try to return it for a refund to make you whole on the deal. Did you buy it based on appearance at the time, regardless of what it was called?

It seems to be doing well in your pond.

Water hyacinths and water lettuce have been made "illegal" in some states. Both are available and legal in my state.
 
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I could share some information about the BBB, too. Don't waste your time - they aren't all what they are cracked up to be.
 

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