Old Cement Pond help

[d56auction]

We recently moved into a 100 year old house in Indianapolis that has a 4' x 8' cement pond in the front yard. The pond currently has no electric access, although this could be added without too much difficulty. I think it is too deep (nearly 4' deep). It gets about 50/50 sun and last summer we had a few lilies, but the water was foul about midway through the summer. It has a fresh water source supplied from a valve in the basement.

The water garden has an interesting 2'x 3' shallow (4") little side pool that has the water pipe from the house and an overflow that feeds the large pond. (forgive the pile of leaves I just cleaned out)

Any thoughts on how we might salvage this? Should we fill it in to make it shallower? Would simply adding an aerator work? Someone told me that the cement is the problem.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[Waterbug]

We recently moved into a 100 year old house in Indianapolis that has a 4' x 8' cement pond in the front yard. The pond currently has no electric access, although this could be added without too much difficulty. I think it is too deep (nearly 4' deep).

That is a very interesting pond. Any idea how old this pond is? The Victorians were way into ponds, even put them inside their home. 100 years ago isn't Victorian, but ballpark. On the other hand it almost looks like blocks might have been used, so there could be a liner behind the blocks?

In general what you have is what I call a Water Garden, meaning a pond primarily for plants. Didn't hear anything about fish. But more properly I'd call this a Lilly Pond because it seems to have have built specifically for lilies, much more popular in the past.

I look at this pond as a period architectural feature. Is that important to you? Maybe you could post some pictures of the house?

It gets about 50/50 sun and last summer we had a few lilies, but the water was foul about midway through the summer. It has a fresh water source supplied from a valve in the basement.

The water garden has an interesting 2'x 3' shallow (4") little side pool that has the water pipe from the house and an overflow that feeds the large pond.

Any thoughts on how we might salvage this? Should we fill it in to make it shallower? Would simply adding an aerator work? Someone told me that the cement is the problem.

What do you mean by salvage this pond? Is there a specific problem beyond the "foul water"?

Here's the deal with ponds, all things are relative. When you say "foul water" another person might consider the water fine. So if foul water is the issue we need to know what makes it foul to you. Smell? Color? Lots of algae? Lots of dead rotting stuff floating on the surface.

Should we fill it in to make it shallower?

You can. Lilies do need depth, but many kinds can live in 2' of water. So filling it is an option. Because it's in the front yard, and I assume no swimming pool type fence, this pond would probably not be allowed today because of it's depth. But local code is all over the place. Some places would allow it because it's only 4' across. Code is worried about kids drowning. 10-24" deep is the max for most local codes in the US.

You can even fill it right to the top with pea gravel so the water stays below the surface, so you see no water. You can plant different kinds of plants in the gravel and they do great. Canna is a Victorian type flower for example that does very well. No weeds, no algae. Here's a picture of such a "pond bed" I had.

Would simply adding an aerator work?

For some things maybe a little. Definitely not any kind of cure. And not at all good for lilies. They like still water or their leaves can balled up. A little water movement is fine, but again, not a huge improvement.

Someone told me that the cement is the problem.

When it comes to ponds many people have one thing they say over and over. Cement is one those things. Foul water, it's the cement. Dead fish, it's the cement. Stock market went down, it's the cement. The cement thing, like most "facts" is a myth. This was a much more popular myth 10-15 years ago, but it will never go away. Here's my page on the cement myth if you care.

Another person will say "you need a filter". Another person "you need a pump". On and on until you've been told every possible thing ever.


Fixing a Lilly Pond
You kind of have to look at it as a flower bed. Plants have to be fertilized, divided, pruned. When leaves get in the bed they have to be removed. Weeds have to be pulled, in this case the weeds are algae.

So a kind of good routine is in the spring to drain out all the water and pull out the lilies. Then clean out the pond. That might mean some shoveling. Doesn't have to be super clean, no scrubbing or bleach or any of that. Basically hose it down and pump out the dirty water. A good size water pump, like 1/4 HP is a big help. A wet shop vac is also a big help.

You want to divide and repot the lilies. As they crowd they do less well. I fertilize with chunks of fruit tree spikes because they're cheap, but there are many options. Doing this before the lilies start putting up shoots is good, but can be done any time. Just cut off all the leaves dead or alive. You can try and save the live leaves if you like, but they grow back fast.

Lilies can be in pots or the entire pond can be one big "pot" with say 12" of growing media (clay soil, gravel, kitty litter, you name it). Just like any flower bed the plants do better in beds than in pots, but it can be more work. However plants can do pure darn well in pots, so it kind of depend how into lilies you are.

Water dyes
There are dyes made to go into ponds. They're not super effective and the above maintenance is still needed, but it can reduce algae growth. In most ponds it really just hides the problem, but that can be fine for a Lilly Pond. Normally such a pond is completely covered with leaves anyways so the strange color is a temp issue. For people with fish dye isn't as useful because they can't see their fish properly.

Chemicals
Because there are no fish there are a range of chemicals you could use to control algae and mosquitoes. Some small fish can control mosquitoes however.

Bottom Line
It's always the same, what are your goals? That drives what course you should take in the future. Do you want a Lilly Pond? Do you want...?

 

[HTH]

This is what I would do.

I would fill the little pond with water hyacinths, water lettuce, duckweek etc. Then I would place a pump with a just a prefilter or strainer in the main pond and pump the water to the far side of the little pond to a pipe with several holes to distribute the water across that edge. You can hide or bury the pipe. The flowing water and plants should keep the water 'sweet'.

4'x4'x8' is right at 950 gallons. Unless it is a code problem I would hesitate to fill in the pond as I would not want to loose the capacity. You can set plants on stacked concrete blocks.

Seek out your local water garden club. There you should find members willing to share plants and fish. Some have plant and fish exchanges and sales about this time of year.

It is possible to do much more but that is a good place to start and it may well be all you need.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Yes there could be a lot to do to make this pond/water garden amazing.
Right now it looks like a hole with water in it.

Water being foul
this could be from no water movement
Although Lilles do not like a lot of water movement or water on there leaves a decent pump as mentioned by HTH would not hurt anything but would help a ton.
From the looks of it Brown water and all the leaves there I would hazard to say there is a bunch of leaves and debri at the bottom rotting and causing the brown water.

My first thing to do would be
scoop out all the crap you can a big water change and put in a pump.
if you are not planing on fish there is no need or very little need for a filter.
or even if you just put in a lot of plants and just a couple of fish you should be fine with out a filter.
And before any of that I would test the water to make sure it is not bad for life.
Plants are a liveing thing so if there are contaminants they will die to.

Ruben

 

[d56auction]

Thanks to everyone for the ideas. Here is a link to a gallery of photos that was done for the Indianapolis Star last fall. http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.d...130&Kategori=LIFE0104&Lopenr=211300802&Ref=PH Ignore all the inside drivel, but picture 3 shows the lily pond in better context. The entire landscape plan for the front of the house is up for grabs. The concrete pavers and crushed brick is going to go. My guess is that the lily pond was created between 1913 and 1926. One photo that we have does not show it and one does. It's sad because it had a perhaps 30" ornamental cast bronze fence around it. Before we finalized the purchase it was stolen for scrap. Lack of fence remains a concern. It's deep enough to be dangerous and although we don't have any little ones around we have had to haul a dog or two out that lept in and couldn't get themselves out. Our yard is fenced and gated so technically we're OK.

It has a pea gravel bottom and a drain, although I just pump all the water out for cleaning. I would like to grow lilies in pots. At this point I'm not ready to commit to simply planting the bottom. Although appealing I want to be confident that my mix of light, depth, plants etc. are ok. We also grew some bog plants in the shallow side pool. They did fairly well. The idea of a pond bed has some appeal.

What do I consider foul? Stagnant and smelly. I know this comes from the decay of organic matter. We try to be diligent in keeping leaves out but it sits beneath a large maple. It receives about half sun. Algae is a problem but we have some experience with large ponds (1 acre) to have an idea about algae control. More robust lily growth should provide more shade which should help. My thought was either moving water or an aerator might provide extra oxygen to speed breakdown of the organics.

I realize lilies are thrilled with moving water but I also know from a previous water garden that they tolerate some moving water. We had a two tier garden with a rock "river" between the top tier and the bottom which provided aeration and movement. We used a filter and didn't use a filter in that garden and I can honestly say I didn't see much difference in either. I'm wondering if pumping the water from the big pond to the little pond and getting some aeration there...small fountain, aerator stone, ??? and then the water will reenter the large pond oxygenated, might be an option. (sorry for that sentence!)

Fish? Don't really care about them, but our county health department supplies gambusia in the early summer for free and it's nice to have them for mosquito control.

Thanks
Jack

 

[sissy]

GOSH THATS THE CUTEST POND .Just buy one of those black bird nets the sell in the hardware stores out in garden supply .It should be easy to hide .Most of the plants by the time you need to put it on will have died back .Once you put your potted plants in it it should not seem as deep as long as you put tall pots in it .Get the bigger plant pots like the five gallon ones and fill them with pure 100% kitty litter and that will help keep your water clean .Addy uses it .I rinse mine first so water does not get as cloudy .I know the cloudy will go away and is a good buffer but don't really care for the milky look it gives my pond .A pump it's self will add air to the water so you should not need an aerator .

 

[Dave 54]

It's deep enough for koi lol

rgrds

Dave

 

[HTH]

Great house too. You have to preserve this pond.

Somebody here, maybe it was waterbug, suggested a solution that I have used in aquariums. The idea is that you insert a grid as a false bottom and rest it on some sort of stand offs. Anyone the falls into the pond lands on the grid.

 

[gardengimp]

That is an incredible house, you two have done a very nice job with it. That is really sad about the original fence being vandalized, it was probably incredible also. Howard, I was thinking of the false bottom also, with it being rectangular, it shouldn't be that hard to do. Kennel flooring might work for the false bottom. Jack, one of the tricks we use in S. Florida at houses on the sea wall canals is to lean a ladder against the sea wall, you could put a ladder in the pond leaning against one side. Dogs will use the ladder to make their way out.

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks for the pictures. Very nice house. I don't know if you consider it Italianate, but I would and is one of my fav. It looks like the pond builder picked up the home's cornice brackets in the pond edge.

The entire landscape plan for the front of the house is up for grabs. The concrete pavers and crushed brick is going to go. My guess is that the lily pond was created between 1913 and 1926. One photo that we have does not show it and one does. It's sad because it had a perhaps 30" ornamental cast bronze fence around it. Before we finalized the purchase it was stolen for scrap. Lack of fence remains a concern. It's deep enough to be dangerous and although we don't have any little ones around we have had to haul a dog or two out that lept in and couldn't get themselves out. Our yard is fenced and gated so technically we're OK.

I'm not so sure you are technically OK. It's your call of course but you might want to check because the liability is pretty high. I assume it would be grandfathered in code wise. But liability can be different. That it used to have a fence and now doesn't could also void the grandfathering unless the fence is replaced. I don't know anything, just thought I'd bring up the issue. We have a lot of kid drownings here in Phoenix so it's on my mind more than it used to.

On to more fun things...

I think you're very right about the missing bronze fence. The pond looks a bit out of place and I'd bet the fence fixed that.

Almost all concrete ponds leak, as in don't hold water. Yours apparently holds water well enough which is pretty cool. I've only seen a couple of ponds of this type that still held water. No reason to think that will change. Doing a lot of landscaping with heavy machinery could maybe change that. Just saying some risk there.

It has a pea gravel bottom and a drain, although I just pump all the water out for cleaning. I would like to grow lilies in pots. At this point I'm not ready to commit to simply planting the bottom. Although appealing I want to be confident that my mix of light, depth, plants etc. are ok. We also grew some bog plants in the shallow side pool. They did fairly well. The idea of a pond bed has some appeal.

Pots are fine. You do have to divide every year I think where planted in a bed it's more like every 3-5 years, but is a much bigger job. Not dividing just causes smaller leaves, few leaves. I'm not sure how it effects flowers. I've never seen a difference.

What do I consider foul? Stagnant and smelly. I know this comes from the decay of organic matter. We try to be diligent in keeping leaves out but it sits beneath a large maple. It receives about half sun. Algae is a problem but we have some experience with large ponds (1 acre) to have an idea about algae control. More robust lily growth should provide more shade which should help. My thought was either moving water or an aerator might provide extra oxygen to speed breakdown of the organics.

I'm still not 100% sure I understand. A Lily Pond is stagnant and ponds do smell. I've had people say this and when I see the pond it turns out to be normal. Different people, different noses. But sometimes it is a smelly mess.

Yes, moving water or an aerator would indeed provide extra oxygen to speed breakdown of the organics. However, in cases where the amount of organic matter is so great that people are complaining about smell to me that's way more organic matter than bacteria can handle. So water movement and aeration would improve water quality say maybe 5%, 10%, maybe even 20% it generally isn't a real solution. Where removing the organics can improve the water quality 80-90%. It doesn't have to be hard. A simple small net and just scoop around on the bottom and get what you can get. Scoop until you're not getting a lot. Plus the stirring even once a week makes a surprising difference in how the bacteria works so I think you can most of the benefit a pump would provide.

I realize lilies are thrilled with moving water but I also know from a previous water garden that they tolerate some moving water. We had a two tier garden with a rock "river" between the top tier and the bottom which provided aeration and movement. We used a filter and didn't use a filter in that garden and I can honestly say I didn't see much difference in either. I'm wondering if pumping the water from the big pond to the little pond and getting some aeration there...small fountain, aerator stone, ??? and then the water will reenter the large pond oxygenated, might be an option. (sorry for that sentence!)

Very true. It depends on the size of the pond, pump, etc. Hard to say. If the leaves do get balled up you can always dial back.

Water movement can release gases over a longer period so smell might not be as noticeable. Also, gas exchange happens at the surface. A fountain type deal is not needed. Even a small pump that moves water under the leaves without even causing a ripple can have a big impact on gas exchange. But, like I said, it can only do so much.

Normally it takes more than a year for organics to build up enough, and enough decomposition to happen, before people start seeing problems. Normally a clean out each spring eliminates decay issues completely. String algae can become a problem just by shear volume and can start to smell in late summer. But string algae has to be pulled out or chemically treated before it grows. Water movement helps string algae.

Fish? Don't really care about them, but our county health department supplies gambusia in the early summer for free and it's nice to have them for mosquito control.

Sweet.

Overall, because you're considering changing the landscaping, I probably wouldn't keep the pond. If you still had the fence then maybe. Not saying you shouldn't keep it, just what I would consider. I'm not on site, can't really tell from pictures, and I'm not you. What I mean is it wouldn't be difficult to reproduce the same type of feature but you could add modern features like electric and a pump and a liner. The current edge maybe could be saved and reused.

Consider some Canna. I just like to push Canna. It would be period.

But a Lily Pond in front of an Italianate - too freakin cool.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Yes that is a great house.
I am surprised that after all this time and having a Maple tree close to it, that it is not broken up and leaking.

But it definitely needs some landscape around it and a fence since it is in the front yard and out in the open like that.
To bad about the fence I am not sure it will look good maybe something short and then some plants around it would be more appeasing.

I would definitely look for a nice old statue and prep it to pump water from it, that would be good for aeration also.
And bring some life to it. MHO

I am not a plant pro but (I think)
Lillies can deal with moving water what they don't want is water being pushed on there leaves.
Besides you would want some movement to get the nutrients and c02 around the plants.

The history and that house must be awesome to check out.

Ruben

 

[HTH]

Yes slow moving water is OK. The leaves want to ride on top the water. You do not enough current to make waves or push on the leaves much.

How often you have to divide depends on the container. If you use an oblong one like a oil drain pan mentioned earlier you can go longer. Plant in the corner with the growing tip pointing at the opposite corner. Should get 2 years or more.

 

[d56auction]

Thanks again. We love digging into the nuts and bolts of the many projects this property has presented. Fortunately there's a "geek forum" for virtually any topic filled with aficionados and experts to help.

Waterbug - we generally call the house Georgian or Federal...but hey it was a housing development in the midwest in 1912 so there is not a lot of purity of style. Neither are we purists as you may have noticed from the house's interior. We're not recreating a 1912 house but it is nice to save old things if they work.

Surprisingly the pond is as tight as a drum. I've drained it a few times in the last two years...even spent a long time cleaning all the muck out of the gravel. I too, am amazed that the maple tree hasn't sent a root through the side.

We have some hardy lilies returning. In the end, we'll probably limp along again this season while we continue to seek ideas. I also had thought of elevating the floor with hog flooring. My understanding is that 4 feet is too deep for lilies and this would make leaf removal easier. Last year we had them on submerged plant stands. We did grow cannas in the shallow pond and will again this year. I need to get electricity near by and can work on some of the ideas presented to get at least a bit of water movement.

Jack

 

[HTH]

You can get by with 4 feet and lillies. Just lower the water level about the time they are trying to reach the surface. Then add water 6 inches at a time and they will follow the water up. Works great. You can also grow them in a less then 2 feet as long as the the plant is submerged.

 

[MitchM]

That is so cool. We get the "This Old House" magazine and there's always an older home in the back needing to be restored. We're always thinking "what if?"

You've done a beautiful job on your home. I hope you can keep as many original features as you can.

You mentioned gravel on the bottom? I would probably get that out of there to make cleaning a little easier, then just look after the pots.