Our Latest Gin Rin


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For those who love Gin Rins on this site here is a photo of our latest Gin Rin not quite sure if its a Gin Rin Showa or a Gin Rin Utsuri .
It came from a Dealership called Avenue Fisheries here in the UK , I think you'll agree just by looking at the shape etc this will given time grow into quite a nice koi possibly growing onto a jumbo .
Your thoughts on this please?


Gin Rin Showa1.jpeg





rgrds


Dave
 
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fishin4cars

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Nice GR Dave, great body confirmation, nice thick tail tube, skin looks really good and great balance, even the Gin Rin itself looks to be in very nice even rows. How big is it now and how old? I can see why it's questionable Showa, To bad it has that shiro on the fin. I think it makes a better Hi Utsuri than Hi showa.
 
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Larkin we bought it in at the 6-7" since then its been in the pond for around about a month I would say its around about an inch longer and has bulked out very nicely .
The showa -Utsuri is questionanle butit was marked utsuri and not showa, however our benching team for each of our shows says showa so we;ll have to see.
Yes the Gin Rin either side of the dorsal fin is very nice an even , I think we made a good choice here we had a pick of 3 others but this is the one that jumped out at us of being the best ,

rgrds

Dave
 

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You picked a good one Dave
Looks a lot bigger than 8" in the pic, should be a good one to watch grow out
good choice !!
 
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Showa or Utsuri, it is a beautiful fish. I can see why you added it to you collection. Personally, from the picture, I would consider it an Utsuri. IN THE PICTURE, I am just aknowledging the "white spot" on the dorsal fin as a "colorless area" like the edging of the other fins. Maybe it looks more extreme in person? Also, being the NON color expert who is still trying to learn good patterns, I wonder with it being such a young fish is that area may change in time? Change or not, I would welcome that fish in my pond, even if it wasnt a ginrin, which you know I love LOL.
 
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Mmathis

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Very handsome fish! Can you explain what makes it a "good" fish as far as the pattern (distribution of markings?) in this girl/guy, and [most of all] in its conformation?

I'm not a koi-person, so not into knowing all the colors, but am interested in what makes for good body & fin shape/conformation in a fish. I AM a believer in choosing strong, healthy fish and would like a general idea of why I should choose 1 fish over another, if not choosing for color alone.
 
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Its rather complicated as there are 12 different classes of koi each with their own differing colours and markings.
Then to confuse things even more we have a catch all class making it 13 in all.
In the Gin Rin variety there are three differing types all to do with the dianond look on th koi's back however they must e strong in the tail area and the nos on this one says it has the potential for jumbo .
The way the diamonds appear eithr side of the dorsal is very uniform which is good, the markings are uniform on the koi with not too much sumi (black) and the orange is nice (not blotchy)I did a discription of all the Gin Rin markings for capewind I don think she'll mind if I copy it off from the message I sent :-

The Diamond gin rin is the most striking , yet least esteamed form of Gin Rin. It is also known as Hiroshima Gin Rin from its place of Origin in Southern Japan it can also cover a multitude of sins.

Kado Gin Rin Only the scales Leading edges are iridecent The amount of shiny Pigmentationmust be uniform across all scales.
The Gin Rin should extend over the dorsal surface although often it doesnt

Beto-GinIridecent pigment covers the entire scale surface not just the leading edge.
This type of Gin Rin is often found in borderline fish, idealy it should cover much of the body

Pearl Gin Rin also known as Tama Gin or Tsubo Gin.
This type of scale looks the best on younger koi, the centre of each scale carries a raised deposit of iridecence and gives the skin a 3D appearance.

Furkurin Scalation in the past decade leading breeder Matsunosuke has been deliberatly producing Go Sanke said to posses Fukurin scalation sceptics write it off as poor quality Kado-Gin so count this one out for now.
I hope this helps you understand the gin rin a little bit more

As you see I said three different types but in reality there is a fourth that nobody seems to rate which is the Furkurin scalation....
Ive added a link into all twelve classes and hope some images help to give you an idea of the above :-


http://www.macarthurwatergardens.com/koi-classifications.shtml

Also:-

http://www.pondtrademag.com/articles/ar-263/

Also :-

http://www.coloradokoi.com/kinginrin.htm

I hope this all helps you in understanding koi Great comments guys thank you all very much for them, lets hope it does well in this years show because I think it deserves it dont you ?


rgrds

Dave
 

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TM, learning what to look for in a higher quality, show entry koi takes lots and lots of learning. As you can see by Dave's post Just the Gin Rin has many classes and things to look at. Color markings are what represents the type of Koi, Such as Black and white could be Shiro Utsuri or Shiro Bekko, How the black sits on the white determines which one it would be called, But then the white has to be looked at closely, does it have pure silky white or smudgy cream. Do the scales have definite fine structure, or are the laid in close to the body and no true definition. Going to a show, or farm where several fish can be viewed side by side is the best way to learn. Trying to learn from photo's online is extremely difficult to see the skin quality differences and what is considered high luster versus, metallic sheen, etc. Even those people that do show are always looking for something more that is attractive to the judges. It's a constant learning curve to try and learn not only what appeals to the owner but the judges themselves. As in dog shows one judge may like skin where another is looking closer at body confirmation. This is what can really make learning difficult for show fish, Not only do you have to learn what makes a high quality koi, but also what judge is fond of what particular look for that particular show.
Mmathis said:
Very handsome fish! Can you explain what makes it a "good" fish as far as the pattern (distribution of markings?) in this girl/guy, and [most of all] in its conformation?

I'm not a koi-person, so not into knowing all the colors, but am interested in what makes for good body & fin shape/conformation in a fish. I AM a believer in choosing strong, healthy fish and would like a general idea of why I should choose 1 fish over another, if not choosing for color alone.
 

Mmathis

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Um, thanks, guys, but what I REALLY meant was.....

What is considered "healthy" conformation-wise for a fish. Guess I didn't make that too clear, sorry.

For example, if I was looking at 3 fish (goldies, Shubies, etc., since I don't do koi), side by side. For this example, color or patterning doesn't factor in -- maybe I like them all 3 equally, but having trouble deciding which one to choose. Are there "faults" that I should be on the lookout for (as with horses, conformation faults that would make it less healthy in the long run)? Not so much from a showing or breeding view point, so much as just being healthier, and better able to survive & thrive.
 
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Ah I see then you more about the goldfish side of things than both Larkin and ourselves about what to look for but I do have Federation of British Aquatics Society National goldfish standards Technical information book at my disposal so I suppose that would do but I'll have to get the whole booklet copied and posted on the site which may take a while as my printer/ copier isnt working and I'll have to ask a friend to copy them off before you can see them it covers 17 different types of goldfish from common to Bubble eye and everything in between its the 1988 edition but it'll say what your looking for .
I knew It'd come in useful one day lol are you ok with that, because as I say it'll take a while?


rgrds


Dave
 
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Mmathis said:
For example, if I was looking at 3 fish (goldies, Shubies, etc., since I don't do koi), side by side. For this example, color or patterning doesn't factor in -- maybe I like them all 3 equally, but having trouble deciding which one to choose. Are there "faults" that I should be on the lookout for (as with horses, conformation faults that would make it less healthy in the long run)? Not so much from a showing or breeding view point, so much as just being healthier, and better able to survive & thrive.
TM, to answer this question, you really need to read the standards and know what proper conformation is. Comparing to horses is really a tough one. A horse that is naturally long in the toe/down on their pasterns can easily be corrected by a good farrier, and live a wonderful, healthy, happy life. Without a good farrier, may be prone to injury over time. A fish with a "deformity" isnt going to be corrected. The severitiy of the deformity can have a greater impact, yet some deformities wont cause any harm. In my opinion, most butterfly koi are grossly deformed. They may still be beautiful to the PET OWNER (me LOL), but to someone who ONLY likes standard fin koi, may look at the butterflies as an abonamtion of deformities. Specifically, most of the butterflies pond owners will see are long/narrow in structure, very unlike a nicely bred standard koi ... While not correct, it isnt causing a health issue. What I think you are asking for in HEALTH ONLY, I think you need to look at FORM and FUNCTION. Is the mouth shape such as will allow the fish to EAT? Good gill plate coverage? Fins allow the fish to swim freely?
 
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capewind said:
TM, to answer this question, you really need to read the standards and know what proper conformation is. Comparing to horses is really a tough one. A horse that is naturally long in the toe/down on their pasterns can easily be corrected by a good farrier, and live a wonderful, healthy, happy life. Without a good farrier, may be prone to injury over time. A fish with a "deformity" isnt going to be corrected. The severitiy of the deformity can have a greater impact, yet some deformities wont cause any harm. In my opinion, most butterfly koi are grossly deformed. They may still be beautiful to the PET OWNER (me LOL), but to someone who ONLY likes standard fin koi, may look at the butterflies as an abonamtion of deformities. Specifically, most of the butterflies pond owners will see are long/narrow in structure, very unlike a nicely bred standard koi ... While not correct, it isnt causing a health issue. What I think you are asking for in HEALTH ONLY, I think you need to look at FORM and FUNCTION. Is the mouth shape such as will allow the fish to EAT? Good gill plate coverage? Fins allow the fish to swim freely?
It's not that we dont like butterfly koi but they are only just in their infancy here in the UK and as such most of what is seen is Garden centre butterflys not the standard we would like to see.
The other problem being that unlike the AKCA the BKKS doesnt and wont recognize the as koi .
As to goldfish much as I like them there are some really ugly ones and grosssly deformed ones like the bubble eye which are infact mutations that have pleased the breeders.
Most fancy goldfish I have helped people with in the past suffer because of this they also would never survive outside being so slow that any preditor would snack on them over the more comon breeds of goldfish and shpuld be kept indoors.
Swimbladder problems are the fancies main problems because everything has become sort of scrunched up so much that these problems are inherent throughout the breed which is sad "what price beauty", the dog world have no end of problems because of this and are trying to reverse breed on some of the more problematic ones.
Did you know that if you left fancies too it they say they would naturally do this themselves over 7 or 8 generations.
Turtle Mommy I shall endevour to get this copied off for you asap.

rgrds

Dave
 
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Dave 54 said:
It's not that we dont like butterfly koi but they are only just in their infancy here in the UK and as such most of what is seen is Garden centre butterflys not the standard we would like to see.
The other problem being that unlike the AKCA the BKKS doesnt and wont recognize the as koi .
I like the butterflies, even my "ugly" lacking in body fish we have here. I know some have an issue with the muddying of the gene pool. Years ago, we were involved in showing Persian cats. At that point in time (the late 1980s, early 1990s), people were trying to improve the Himalayans, by breeding them with persians. These hybrids at the time were known as AOVs (all other varieties). A Himmy to a Persian would only result in solid colors (not the points/masks on face, ears and paws), but in the next generation, when bred back to the himmy, they could reproduce the points ... the Persian breeders wanted none of this mud in their gene pools ... then right after the himmys came the exotic shorthairs ... the perfect persian, but without the longhair ... same arguements arose. As a breeder, I disagreed with MY breed being muddied up, but as long as registrations identified the AOV bloodstock, I was ok with helping the other breeds develop. The key however is what they wanted, is what eventually turned me away from the persians. They wanted the eyes sooo large (eventual cause was tear duct deformities), and the noses squished into the back of their heads (many kittens couldnt survive birth due to not being able to breath, or needed to be tube fed as they couldnt breath and nurse), and jaw issues (oversized lower jaws resulted in eating problems from bad bites and crooked jaws) ... there were more issues, but these were the most obvious prices to pay for the look of those big eyed/flat faces ... We specialized in whites, and they were allowed to have a longer face, until they werent ... This is what an outstanding copper eyed white looked like for that time frame. Casey was CFA Regionally Ranked by the time he was 10 months old, and the following year CFA Nationally ranked with LIMITED SHOWING. He was also top ranked with CFF and TICA as well, but they were much smaller organizations.
 

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The plot thickens according to Glenn the husband of Vals Cousin Maggie did a little digging into what this Gin Rin in reality is .
He has checked up via his mobile notebook abt and has come back with this if it was red in colour it would be an utsuri but because its orange in colour it is infact a Gen Rin AKa Bekko.
Personally I think he may well be right on this but it will be down to the judge as to what it really is on show day .
Capewind sadly alott of what you were discribing happens which is really sad because we as the breeders have brought this about.
But in saying this this practice goes on in the world of koi and we dont blink an eye lid do we but when it comes to our cats and dogs people are prone to becoming very upset .
Crufts for many years was the main problem when it came to dog breeds with all the bad things being bred in as beauty but now they are the movers and shakers in reversing this bad traibts in dogs but the breeders are a different kettle of fish in they refuse to see that they are doing wrong.
Under the new Animal Welfare act a number were taken to court and find hefty sums for animal cruelty sadly however they cant see what they are doing wrong and a prison sentence may well be the next step in forcing them to see what they are doing wrong docking of tails is now banned but the practice stil goes on admittedly far fewer are doing this but you can see what the RSPCA is up against (years of belief they were doing right as breeders) so it is an uphill struggle .

rgrds

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Our stay in the cat world was short as I would not intentionally reproduce an animal I knew in my heart could have serious issues. In our breed of dogs (Mastiffs), we did well regardless of the trends. The biggest challenge for Mastiffs is still in the fact that they are the "heaviest" breed, and people want to make them even bigger. Come on, we already have the "bragging rights" to the heaviest breed, what goal is reached in breeding for bigger? I find people as a whole too self serving without regards to others.

Back to fish... I keep forgetting Aka Bekko even exists ... I know Aka stands for "red" and "bekko" for black ... I need to go and better read the two color descriptions better. I have an orange and black pond spawn butterfly that we let loose in the pond yesterday (from the 600). Wishing now I had taken a picture to ask you what you think its color is. I was calling it an Utsuri ... base color of the fish is orange (including belly), and the back has black "blotches" ... It is still quite small, maybe 6", but as a butterfly, with such long fins, it really doesnt look that big .. When it was half the size, the entire back looked like one big black blotch, but is now seperating into blurred stepping stones ... the way the orange is coming in, I think the stepping stones are going to seperate yet.
 

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