Planning 2 ponds and a water bog

[csdude55]

I intended to do this last year, but... ya know, COVID. So now I'm back to the planning stages.

I'm attaching a photo of the front of my house. I took this about 10 months ago at dusk, so sorry that it's dark! But it gives you an idea of the lay of the land. There's a gentle slope from the landscape lights to the end of my property, and this area is full sun.

My plan is to start with a water bog towards the left, near the bay window (but obviously about 20' or so from the house). Then I want it to overflow in to a pond that's around 2,000 gallons (thinking of a stream that's maybe 10' long, and the pond being roughly 8' x 12' x 3'), then have that one overflow to a second pond that's around 5,000 gallons (thinking of a second stream that's maybe 15-20' long, and the pond being roughly 12' x 20' x 3').

The primary purpose of the bog would be to act as a filter for the ponds, with a ton of plants in it. I don't intend to have any other filters involved. I would probably move some of my pickerel rush to the smaller pond, then water lilies and maybe dwarf cattails in the larger pond.

The initial question is about the size of the water bog. I've read that it needs to be about 30% of the surface area of the pond, so I'm taking a guess here that I should add the area of both ponds together? Eg,

(8 x 12) + (12 x 20) = 336
336 x 0.30 = 100

So, I would need the bog to be a little more than 8' x 12' (the same size as the smaller pond)?

What about the depth? I vaguely remember reading that the volume should be 10% of the pond, so I'm guessing it would only need to be 12-18" deep? A depth of 12" would be 750 gallons.

My original idea was to run 2" PVC inside of the bog, then lay larger river rock at the bottom, followed by a layer of something like crusher run gravel, then finished with pea gravel. And I figured to stop the gravel about 2" below the water surface, so that the water plants would look more natural coming out of the water.

What do you all think so far?

 

[Jhn]

Sounds like a interesting pond design. If it were me I would probably forgo the second stream making the first stream a bit longer then just one large pond. Will say what is aesthetically pleasing is subjective, as no matter how big you go, everyone tends to think I should have made it bigger.

Depth isn’t really a concern after a certain point, other than it depends on your design. If you are going with a pvc manifold bog and only going 12-18” deep just do the whole bog in pea gravel. In this style bog there is no benefit to having larger rocks at the bottom. Actually can be detrimental as the larger rocks have less surface area for nitrifying bacteria to colonize than the pea gravel.

If you want to do a snorkel/centipede bog you will need to dig deeper probably at least 3’ deep, so you can put the graduated layers of rock down larger at bottom then get smaller as you come up. The idea with this style is it let’s any silt or fines in The water column that get pumped into the bog to settle out as water flow slows down as it enters the bog, then be pumped out via the snorkel.

Lastly, do not use crush and run gravel, it has a mixture of large gravel then tiny fines as well, stuff is meant to lock together. If you are going with the deeper/snorkel design use large rocks on bottom 6-12”, then 2-4”, to make up the bottom foot to foot and a half of the bog then add 18” of pea gravel over the top of this.

 

[addy1]

Good plans!

The bog can be deeper than 12 inches, mine is 2.5 feet deep, mainly because I didn't stop digging. But it works great. Mine is 30% if not more the area of the pond. My hot tub pond is filtered by a tiny bog made out of a planter. Mine is just pea gravel, a lot of pea gravel. I ran two 2 inch pvc pipes with slashes cut in them. Each about 25 feet long.

Do you have the pond rules there? IE fencing if over x deep. We did in AZ, think we do here, but our ponds are 100 plus feet from any neighbor so the rules don't apply ie fencing.

And I figured to stop the gravel about 2" below the water surface, so that the water plants would look more natural coming out of the water

The pea gravel settles, the water rises, you won't have a issue having a layer of water over the gravel. I now, 10 years later, have areas that look like land, ie so many plants and roots the water is below them. Which is fine with me. The deer have learned to love the bog plants, right now they are helping groom it. The bog is turning green quickly.

 

[csdude55]

Thanks for all the info!!

If it were me I would probably forgo the second stream making the first stream a bit longer then just one large pond.

You can't really tell it from the picture, but there's a tree line on the left (West) side that cuts inward and hides the house from the road. My general idea was to sort of follow the tree line (but maybe 40' in), then I can plant flowering and fruit trees on the left (West), then bushes closer to the ponds, then flowers and ornamental plants on the right (East). With 2 ponds, I'm thinking that I can run a pathway throughout the garden, place bridges over the streams, put in sitting areas, and create a sort of "experience".

Do you have the pond rules there? IE fencing if over x deep. We did in AZ, think we do here, but our ponds are 100 plus feet from any neighbor so the rules don't apply ie fencing.

I'm not in city limits and I don't THINK that there are any county ordinances regarding ponds, but I'll double check... great point! It would have reeeeeally sucked to build it, then an inspector show up and make me undo it :-O

And @Jhn and @addy1 , thanks for the great info on the pea gravel! I was thinking of the filter the same way that my commercial filter is with my 1,000G pond; it has larger ceramic balls, then a mesh pad, then a foam pad, so my logic was large rock in place of balls, larger gravel in place of mesh, then smaller gravel in place of the foam. But you're the pros, so I'll just do pea gravel I'll probably stick with 12-18" because (a) I'll be digging this part with a shovel, and (b) if I don't need to go deeper then the pea gravel ain't cheap.

For that 1,000G, I really hope to replace my boulder waterfall and commercial filter with a bog next month (April) as a sort of test run. When I get the front done, I plan to move all of my fish and plants to the new ponds, then strip this one down and redo it. I was never a fan of how the border came out, and it'll be a lot easier to fix if I can drain it.

 

[mrsclem]

While planning your pond and landscaping, take in to consideration how plants and trees will effect the pond. Leaves falling in, too much shade, etc. Great to be able to start with a blank canvas!

 

[csdude55]

Leaves are probably the biggest issue :-/ I'm going to have to cut out several trees before I can start, but when I put in the fruit and flowering trees then I know I'll have to deal with falling fruit and petals. I PLAN to leave enough of a gap, but of course it's hard to know exactly how far a trees is going to spread out in 10-15 years!

The area is full sun, though, and the trees will be on the Western side so they'll only give late afternoon shade. I'm actually more concerned that it will get TOO much sun in July and August :-O

 

[brokensword]

Thanks for all the info!!



You can't really tell it from the picture, but there's a tree line on the left (West) side that cuts inward and hides the house from the road. My general idea was to sort of follow the tree line (but maybe 40' in), then I can plant flowering and fruit trees on the left (West), then bushes closer to the ponds, then flowers and ornamental plants on the right (East). With 2 ponds, I'm thinking that I can run a pathway throughout the garden, place bridges over the streams, put in sitting areas, and create a sort of "experience".



I'm not in city limits and I don't THINK that there are any county ordinances regarding ponds, but I'll double check... great point! It would have reeeeeally sucked to build it, then an inspector show up and make me undo it :-O

And @Jhn and @addy1 , thanks for the great info on the pea gravel! I was thinking of the filter the same way that my commercial filter is with my 1,000G pond; it has larger ceramic balls, then a mesh pad, then a foam pad, so my logic was large rock in place of balls, larger gravel in place of mesh, then smaller gravel in place of the foam. But you're the pros, so I'll just do pea gravel I'll probably stick with 12-18" because (a) I'll be digging this part with a shovel, and (b) if I don't need to go deeper then the pea gravel ain't cheap.

A major point of jhn's was NOT to use gravel that is sharp edged as that makes if lock and not stay open/loose as filters should have. In my bog, I put a 4" drain tile pipe instead of pvc and then layered with large 8" round boulders, followed by 2" round cobblestone, and last with 3/8 pea gravel. Same idea as the AquaBlox and snorkel but without the cost. Less 'settling area' maybe, but I still have a about 2' of larger rocks and the space aroun them for any settling to occur.

 

[addy1]

Leaves are probably the biggest issue :-/ I'm going to have to cut out several trees before I can start, but when I put in the fruit and flowering trees then I know I'll have to deal with falling fruit and petals. I PLAN to leave enough of a gap, but of course it's hard to know exactly how far a trees is going to spread out in 10-15 years!

The area is full sun, though, and the trees will be on the Western side so they'll only give late afternoon shade. I'm actually more concerned that it will get TOO much sun in July and August :-O

My ponds never have shade until the sun is setting they all do well. Water movement and some depth helps out. The highest temperature is around 80 in the summer.

Which way do your winds prevail, mine almost always blow from the west to east. I planned the skimmer ect based on that. The huge maple was south of the pond the leaves blew south east away from the pond. It is dead now and cut back to some huge branches for the hawk to have a sitting place.

 

[GBBUDD]

There are many plants and trees that are poisonous to fish. Do a search for such species that can grow in your area..
I am also a fan of bogs I have both a deep matrix settling bog as well as a peastone sorta speek bog though I did not use pea in either bog I used 3/8 river with a mix of 3/4 river rock.

In the planning stages I suggest you tube and mainly stick with the pro videos. I have seen many who belive they know what's up make some errors that can cost hard in the long run.

A couple trips along most builds are using sharp rock in the pond and not using a strong enough underlayment to protect it.

Making angled side walls. Expecting to place stone on a steep slope.

In the bog not having the sides high enough to allow for growth in the bog and clogging and having the water rise on you.

At the waterfall not leaving a very wide area out and around the falls making sure you collect the splash and it does n I t leak out, take my word for it even the little splash adds up over time and can cost replacing it with town or even well water. My pond that is not small like your planning needs 30 minutes of a hose at full force replacing evaporation and plants absorbing water.

Folded over rubber can actually wick water upwards as much as a couple inches Causing leaks .

 

[csdude55]

I'm getting closer to moving forward with this, now I need some advice on the pump!

Reminder, my plan is to start with a water bog at the top of the slope that's roughly 8' x 12', about 20' or so from the house. Then I want it to overflow in to a pond that's around 2,000 gallons (thinking of a stream that's maybe 10' long, and the pond being roughly 8' x 12' x 3'), then have that one overflow to a second pond that's around 5,000 gallons (thinking of a second stream that's maybe 15-20' long, and the pond being roughly 12' x 20' x 3').

Can you suggest a pump that can push/pull enough water from the bottom 5,000 gallon pond, up a slope about 40-50', and in to the bog?

 

[combatwombat]

What will the vertical rise be from water level of bottom pond to water level of bog? How wide will the stream be?

A 50' run to serve 7,000 gallons + a bog is probably going to need an 8-10k gal pump (or combination of smaller pumps) and 3" plumbing to reduce dynamic head.

My recommendation: Forget about the pumps for now. Build the ponds/streams you want and then come tell us what they are and we'll help you choose the right pumps to serve what actually ends up getting built.

 

[addy1]

My stream is around 85 feet long fed by the ponds on the deck. I feed the deck ponds and the stream with a harbor freight clear water pump that can handle the 100 feet plus minus of head pressure. I have that pump on a timer. For me no need to have it run all of the time, no fish in the deck ponds, or stream ponds. It is more of a electric sucker than my main pond for the lower ponds.

 

[Lisak1]

My recommendation: Forget about the pumps for now. Build the ponds/streams you want and then come tell us what they are and we'll help you choose the right pumps to serve what actually ends up getting built.

Good suggestion! I see so many people get caught up in the "now I need to decide what rocks I will use to finish the edge!" before they even put the first shovel in the ground. Planning is great, but getting so caught up in the details can be paralyzing.

 

[GBBUDD]

Theres two main design paramiters you need to keep in mind with streams and bogs . they are usualy higher then the pond and when the power goes out or the pump just stops working . Water in motion comes into play and you need to make sure your pond or cistern can handle the water as it drains. Now with a stream i make a high spot or two along the stream so that that water though it looks to be a standard stream is more of a long shallow pond with and over flow at one end this way you don't need to worry about all that water. Your plants wont' dry out and die because you lost power for a day or two. The same goes for water falls and bogs you need to keep the water in motion and where to colect it when the power goes down and it will.

 

[csdude55]

Planning is great, but getting so caught up in the details can be paralyzing.

Haha, I totally get that! Last year REALLY messed me up financially, though, so I'm wanting to make sure that I can at least budget for the big ticket stuff before I dig a hole and realize that I'm out of my depth (if you'll pardon the pun ).

Luckily, I still have a lot of border rock on hand, but I AM concerned with the flat rocks for the streams! I'm guessing that I'll need at least 2 pallets, so that's gonna be about $500 by itself. I'm hoping to keep the build under $1,000, then this fall I can spend another $1,000 on trees, shrubs, and mulch. I already have plenty of fish and pond plants that I can divide up, so I hope that's all of the major expenses for now.

@GBBUDD, it's funny you should mention that! I've been thinking about setting up a windmill and/or solar panel just to run my ponds and lighting... I'm finding smaller setups for around $750 on Amazon, so that might be a project for 2022...