Plans for new pond underway

[JesseHunt]

So here is my first post for help. Please forgive me if some of my questions have already been asked and answered. Ok the plan is to order a 40x60 liner to construct a 30x30 pond with a 30x 20 bog filter. I plan to have a water wheel with a 10’ stream to run into the pond. The water wheel I am a bit worried with how much water loss there will be so will probably plum in an option to return the water to the wheel or change it to just return to the stream. The quick math is almost 20,000 gallons. So with not having vertical sides I’m thinking closer to 15,000 gallons. My first question is should I include a bottom drain or just a skimmer? Next to the pump. Following the 2x per hr turnover that means I need upwards of 30,000 gph. Wow. With that in mind should I send all 30,000 gallons to the bog filter, can it even handle that much flow, or do I need to include some sort of mechanical filter. I’m having a hard time finding a pump that will move that volume so thinking two pumps required at minimum. If a bottom drain is a good idea then I will be getting one that incorporates an air diffuser to help oxygenate especially if the waterwheel doesn’t run all the time due to water loss and also for in the winter when the pumps are shut off. It does get cold here and freezes a few feet deep as we are at 6,000 feet at the base of the Ruby Mountains and see sub zero temps more then I care to.

 

[JesseHunt]

Sorry hit post to soon
That’s was where I was going to stop for now just wanted to say thanks in advance for help

 

[addy1]

What a neat project you are planning.

I only cycle my pond water every 2 hours. I have not followed the ever 1/2 hour rule and my pond does well. It is not as big as yours.
My AZ pond was 14000 gallons, kept it in good shape with a 6800 (around) gph pump.

You are going to have a huge bog filter, it could probably handle the high flow. I pump just under 6000 gph into mine which is 26 x 4.5 feet plus or minus and 2.5 feet deep.

 

[Tombstone]

What a neat project you are planning.

I only cycle my pond water every 2 hours. I have not followed the ever 1/2 hour rule and my pond does well. It is not as big as yours.
My AZ pond was 14000 gallons, kept it in good shape with a 6800 (around) gph pump.

You are going to have a huge bog filter, it could probably handle the high flow. I pump just under 6000 gph into mine which is 26 x 4.5 feet plus or minus and 2.5 feet deep.

I have a 20,000+ gallon pond in Arizona and have no mechanical filtration. I have had zero water quality problems. I just slowed down on food for the year. I have 75+ fish and two turtles.

 

[addy1]

Disclaimer..............I do not have koi I do have shubunkins and goldfish, they are not as fussy as koi about water.

 

[Lisak1]

they are not as fussy as koi about water.

I'd clarify that to say koi are harder on pond water than goldfish of any variety - they produce far more waste which makes for a greater filtration requirements.

Let me break some of your questions down to answer them:

First - I'd order two pieces of liner in the correct sizes. One for the pond, one for the bog. A piece the size you mentioned would be massive and extremely difficult to work with. (You didn't actually ask this question, but it caught my attention!)

Second - bottom drain or skimmer: these serve two completely different purposes. A bottom drain is typical in a dedicated koi pond (DKP) which the owner knows will be heavily with koi. The purpose of these ponds is to showcase the fish, so there are no rocks, gravel, or plants in the pond. The bottom drain is necessary to remove the waste produced by the large fish. A bottom drain is plumbed to an external filter of some kind that deals with the fish waste - you wouldn't want to run the bottom drain to the bog for example. A skimmer, on the other hand, is for removing debris from the surface of the pond - leaves, dust, pollen, etc that fall on the surface will "skim" off. A skimmer is not an absolute necessity, but it does make keeping the surface free of debris easier. Without a skimmer all of that stuff just falls to the bottom. We don't have a traditional skimmer on our pond - ours flows over a negative edge into a down flow bog - but the effect is the same. I think a skimmer helps keep the pond surface nice and sparkly!

Third: Your bog will be big enough to handle the flow, but I'm not sure you need to worry about the 2x per hour rule with a pond that large. You don't HAVE to pump all the water through the bog, but if it's your main filtration then you should try to pump MOST of it there. How will the water wheel come into play? Is it just a water feature or will it add functionality?

Fourth: Several pump sound like good thought. Maybe one for the waterwheel and a second for the bog. Aeration is a good idea, but you can easily add that with an air pump and some diffusers. You don't have to shut down for the winter, but you will want to make sure the pond is designed to handle ice in any waterfalls or streams. Ice can create dams and divert water out of ponds very easily. We run all winter here in Chicago and like you see subzero temps way too often!

Hope this helps a bit! Did you mention what kind of fish you plan to keep?

 

[JesseHunt]

@addy1 i plan to stick with a variety of gold fish
@Lisak1 that helps very much. The water wheel is to help oxygenate the water and I do plan to run an air pump as well especially during the winter months. I’m not sure how well the water wheel will fare once it starts freezing I’m picturing a solid block of ice in my mind lol. I do plan to run the bog and waterwheel on separate pumps and curious if I should add some tile of filtration to this circuit thinking some form of pressurized filter so I can send some or all of it up to the waterwheel. Also with the bottom drain I do plan to rock the bottom of my pond so do I not need to send water from the Lower water column to any form of filtration? Would I be good just installing 2 skimmers?

And thanks for the help.

 

[JesseHunt]

Also @addy1 your big filter post is what caused my pond design to grow very much larger.

 

[Lisak1]

Explain what you mean by "rock the bottom". If you mean a shallow layer of gravel, then no - the gravel actually aids in breaking down debris as it gives the beneficial bacteria surface area to colonize.

 

[GBBUDD]

The water wheel i would look at as a bonus what ever it does for the system is adding to the equation so like in the summer the wheel will work it will add to the adding of o2. 30,000 gph is going to be a hefty electric bill as well as it will add some plumbing design work. yes bog can handle the flow it's the opening that will require the math. i have 2 bogs off a 12,000 gph with one opening only 16" and the second bog flows right into the stream. but as it enters the pond it's one 48" fall and a second 12" so at 30 gph i would say safely you could have a 8 foot wide and a 3 or 4 " second fall now thats could be very cool but also very loud.. but believe it or not even 30,000 gph is still less water flow then you may think. at full flow 12,000 when held verticaly coming out of a 3" hose it only flows out about a foot before gravity grabs the flow it's not like a garden hose shooting across the drive way. But it will require more then one 4" line in gravity fed.
Like in aquariums the larger the area the less the changes to the water are drastic and the fish can survive easier. a 30 x30 pond will not require a 30 x 20 bog but if you do i would think you would rarely ever have any problems. i estimate my pond under 12,000 but with the stream it should be a little over, my bog is not even 20 x 10 x 7' though i did make a second pea stone bog with cut pvc as a backup for matenance it's around 6 x8 a foot deep. water is crystal clear

 

[JesseHunt]

@Lisak1 yes the plan is to put a layer of drain rock about 8” deep or so. Going by @addy1 of upto 30% surface of pond for bog I am a bit over around 37% I am thinking if I pump 18,000 gph to the bog and 10,000 to the waterwheel/ stream wondering if I should put some sort of filter on the waterwheel 10000 gph line. Also is the common thought no bottom drain just maybe 2 skimmers?

 

[GBBUDD]

I love water wheels myself but 10,000 is way more then any water wheel i have seen lately . most are troffs where little more then a trickle fill the troff and it spins slowly. not so much contently your thinking about a 8 foot or larger wheel by the sounds of it for 10000 gallons

 

[Lisak1]

@Lisak1 yes the plan is to put a layer of drain rock about 8” deep or so.

I would rethink that. Rock that deep is going to trap debris and you'll have a hard time keeping it clean. You could even find that the trapped debris will create a situation that is toxic to your fish.

A "rocked" pond will have boulder walls on all sides, but the bottom should be a shallow layer of gravel that is easily stirred up. I can make one swoop with my foot while in the pond and expose the bottom liner. Any deeper than that and you will have debris collecting and rotting in the gravel which is not a good situation in a man made pond. A natural pond can have a much deeper substrate because it has contact with the earth from the bottom - your liner prevents that, and traps that organic waste.

IF you want to stay with the bottom drain plan then you want the bottom to be free of any rock or gravel at all so the drain can do what it's designed to do. It can't pull debris out of rock. Again, personal choice on whether or not you go with the BD, but you don't want to send water from a bottom drain directly to a bog - you'll need some kind of pre-filter to handle the solid waste. Bogs function best when the water is "clean" - free from any solid debris. If you pump water that contains solids to the bog, you'll risk clogging it and your bogs functionality will suffer.

 

[addy1]

Bogs function best when the water is "clean" - free from any solid debris. If you pump water that contains solids to the bog, you'll risk clogging it and your bogs functionality will suffer.

I pull water about a foot off the bottom of the pond. That is the water that feeds the bog and I have a leaf basket between the pond water and the bog.
My bog stays totally functional, now running for 9 years

 

[Tula]

@GBBUDD Where do your two bottom drains flow? Do you have some kind of mechanical filtration prior to your bog?