Please don't take offense to my screename

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by KoiKiller, May 1, 2010.

  1. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    Hello all,
    Been reading here for a bit, and thought I'd join up for some expertise.

    Quick background - dug a 400-500 Gallon pond about 4 years ago right off a paver patio we put in ourselves, and piled the dirt about 4 feet high and decided to put in a waterfall. Put in a biofilter/fall and split off it with PVC to create two other falls - drowns out the neighbors which is nice. Kept tossing in feeder goldfish till about 4 of them "took" - 2 have disappeared over the last 2 years, but have 2 that are 8 inches/4 years old.

    Two years ago, wanted to enlarge, so put another pond about 1,000 gals right next to the other to surround the patio, with a footbridge I built in between them and a sitting area. The 1,000 gal has biofilter/fall as well as a newly installed UV/Pressure filter Laguna 2100. I put that in after trying every product to get rid of green water, and this cleared it in 1 week, and got the brown water out with Poly batting (thanks to this forum) placed in the bottom of a Home Depot bucket with holes drilled out in the bottom-sides - worked like a champ!!.

    So why the screename?

    First, I LOVE KOI. I WANT TO HAVE KOI.

    But over the last 2 years, I have killed so many of these poor fish, I'm at my wits end. I have put them in my first, well established pond, where my 2 goldfish are, only to watch some get sucked unmercifully into my 4,000 GPH waterfall pump, or watch them die. After building the second larger pond, I have tried buying them in 12's, toss them in only to watch them all die over a week period of time. Last year, one made it by himself and grew to about 6 inches. I was excited at least I had one, but a 25% water change (pond was low due to evaporation) killed him - found him dead the next morning (and I used declorinator).

    This season, after clearing the green water, both ponds perfectly clear and my two goldfish swiming away, I bouight 2 dozen baby Koi - 12 for one pond, 12 for the other, figuring SOME will live. As I type this, ONE is left in the pond with the Goldfish, 3 in the other. They are dying one by one, as before, and I don't know what to do, except to keep removing the dead bodies, and adding more, till SOME live.

    I don't have any water test numbers to post yet, but have had the local pet store bless both ponds,only to watch both ponds kill these beautiful fish.

    And here's a kicker - I'VE TRIED MORE FEEDER GOLDFISH AND THEY DIE TOO IN BOTH PONDS!!!

    One thing it does seem - ANY addition of city water kills them/burns their gills - while my established goldfish love it - I have accidently, in years past, left the hose on, and I KNOW it was a 100% water change and these two goldfish just keep going!..lol

    I'm starting to wonder if it just wasn't meant for me to have Koi or more fish in general. Broke my heart to remove a beautiful white butterfly Koi yesterday that finally floated to the bottom upside down (as the two goldfish swam by him).

    Sorry for the long post, but that's where I am. Hoping to scan some photos of the ponds to show a bit - look forward to chatting with all you! Any Koi tips would be appreciated - maybe I'm putting too small of fish in? Should I buy larger/more expensive ones?
    KK
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  2. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    Oh dear. Sorry to hear about all this! Welcome to our site, and hopefully we can help you solve some problems.

    Spending money on larger/more expensive koi is not going to help. In fact, to be honest, your pond really isn't cut out for koi at all. 1,000 gallons is really a bit small for koi in the long run. You are buying them little, but remember that koi can grow to be 18-24". You have a pond that is perfect for goldfish, however. There are wonderful fish you can get. Sarrassa goldfish are really inexpensive and hardy. They are red/orange & white, and are often called poor man's koi because they look like kohaku koi.

    But let's step back a bit. Promise me you will buy no more fish until we figure out what is happening with your pond.

    First of all, you mention a 4000g waterfall pump, but your pond is 1000 gallons. That sounds like a bit of overkill.

    Give us the following info:

    1. are both your ponds connected or are they separate
    2. Describe your filtration system to us in more detail. You've got the laguna pressure filter and what else? when did you get that filter?
    3. How often do you do partial water changes?
    4. How do you feed the fish?
    5. Test water

    Any info and photos will help!
     
    koikeepr, May 1, 2010
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  3. KoiKiller

    DrCase Moderator Moderator

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    After reading your story...I take no offense to your screen name..It fits you well :lol:
    Welcome to the forum
    You do need to get a water test kit and let us know what it shows
     
    DrCase, May 1, 2010
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  4. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    I'd love to respond, but the forum first said I had too many pics I was posting, so I edited down to the required amt - then it's saying I can't post "links" until I have 5 posts, so I can't post pics at all :lol:
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  5. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    Maybe if I post 2 more times, it will let me?
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  6. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    Last one is a charm? Nope, gotta wait 30 seconds....GRRRRRRR :lol:
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  7. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    OK, let me try again:

    Glad you stopped me, because the plan was today to go get some more "victims" and body bags...lol But I'll wait.

    Here are some pics I just shot with my cellphone:

    POND ONE - APPROX 400-500 GALS.
    Established 4 years ago - 2 hardy goldfish, lots of carcasses of other attempted fish. Bio/waterfall with 4,000 GPH pump for strong waterfall flow and sucking up poor helpless/defenseless baby fish.

    [​IMG]

    POND TWO - APPROX 1,000 GALS - 8 INCHES DEEP FRONT END, DROPPING AFTER 4 FEET TO , 2.5 FEET DEEP END - 12 foot long. Bench/sitting area to in deep end for fish funerals (was supposed to be feeding area). One bio/falls with small 800 GPH pump (that sucked in a fish yesterday and a 3,750 GPH pump feeding to Laguna 2100 and exiting that under footbridge to create a creek/flow rushing sound. Fish quake with fear from this pump. You see them being dragged backwards, screaming for mercy. :lol: Sorry, I can only laugh it's so upsetting.

    [​IMG]

    Lastly, heres a shot from my screened porch to show how the relation of the two seperate ponds:

    [​IMG]

    So to recap, pond one has the two hardy goldfish, 8 inches long that have survived the carnage. Pond two, currently has I THINK 3 Koi under the rock in the deep end, unless the pump has put another notch on it's motor. The Laguna filter was put in about 3 weeks ago, due to my frustration of green water last season, a full pumpout/cleaning and try again this year, using bacteria, plants, biofall, etc. The Laguna cleared it and I'm finishing my home depot/batting straining with has REALLY cleared my water. I liked it so much, I used in in Pond one, though it was find and it really picked up particulates Laguna couldn't. For feedings, I'm careful not to overfeed - when I bring new fish in, they don't even go after it, since most are in coma's - I feed the two goldfish about 2-3 times a week - only what they can eat. I scoop out any excess after about 10 mins if not eaten.

    On water changes, I don't typically "pump out/replace" - I add because of evaporation - probably 1-2 times a week - Lately I've tried to wait out rains, because the most damage appears to come from anytime I DO add fresh water - and I always put Beckett chorine/chloramine remover each time, but it still appears to do in the fish. Maybe they are dying for other reasons, but it seems to accelerate it - but those two goldfish I could jet spray them with it and they wouldn't die.

    That's where I stand today!...Though i know my ponds are small, I don't want "alot" of Koi, just a few - maybe mixed with goldfish - only reason I've been buying so much, was hoping a few would live.
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  8. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    These pics are most helpful.

    Ok, here's your first dilemma. It appears you have rocks on the bottom of your pond. This is just a no-no. Rocks don't allow for you to keep your pond floor clean, and all the poop, detrius and such just gets in between all the rocks and it creates bad water quality. I would bet if you tested your water, you will find the parameters are not good.

    So, first thing to recommend is for you to grab a bucket and start hauling out the rocks. You are going to stir everything up by doing this and your water will look dreadful for a few days until everything settles. Doing this will put a load on your filter, so be ready to clean it out for 3-4 days straight after removing the rocks as you will grab all sorts of muck.

    Next, we need to address the pump issue. You just CAN'T CAN'T have a 4000gph pump in a 400 gallon pond. It just won't work. You can't turn your water over that quickly and as you already said, it will shred the fish. Put the 800 gph pump on this pond. Seal the pump in a cage. You can do this by buying two black plastic colanders at the dollar store and just strap them together to form a ball. Cut the colander to get the pump hose through and electrical cord and you now have an item that will protect your fish and protect the pump from getting muck in it.

    Now, sell the 4000gph pump or put it in the garage. You can use it to drain the pond should you ever need to, if you want to keep it. You already have the 3700 gph pump on the other pond. You don't mention what kinda pump the 3700 gph one is. If that doesn't have a cage, you should make one out of colanders or some other plastic box as well.

    Though the laguna filter is very good, pressure filters aren't great for bio filtration. They are excellent mechanical filters tho. Make sure to open it every month and clean the sponges. DO NOT USE hose water. Get a 5 gal bucket and fill it with pond water and use that to clean them so you don't disturb the beneficial bacteria.

    So, this means that you need to do more involving a bio filter. I would do a 55g DIY filter in your case. We have lots of examples of how to build one on our DIY section. It will give you bio filtration, and it will help slow down your pump a bit more too as it will have to go through the barrel first.

    Let me know if I'm not making sense or am confusing you.

    If you don't start by getting those rocks out of the water, none of your problems will ever go away. You need to begin there.
     
    koikeepr, May 1, 2010
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  9. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    WOW, sounds like I'm not doing ANYTHING correctly. :lol:

    I went with the larger pump in Pond one, because we wanted a rushing waterfall - the strapping of two mesh baskets around it is a good idea - I'm going to try that - maybe the mesh baskets used for planting pond plants? Also, pond one has stones on the bottom and my goldfish are 4 years old and I've NEVER drained/washed the pond out. I like to think that with the high water flow rate, the lillies, and bacteria, that nature has taken over and it's "cleaning itself". I've never pulled muck out - just occassional stiring of the water/netting stuff out and the pump grabs the rest and moves it to the biofall that I clean about 2 to 3 times a year - and I use tap water - and the fish are 4 years old, bright bright orange/gold and seem energetic...lol.

    Please don't take any of my objections/come backs as putting down the information you gave me - I did some looking around and there seems to be quite an amount of debate on both sides of the "rocks on bottom" issue. It makes sense, that pockets of sludge can build and cause them to be sick - I can't fathom why these two goldfish are alive, from what I'm reading. And frankly, if I have to go with a "plastic look" pond, I'm wondering if I won't just keep the rocks in the bottom and stop buying fish. I'd hate to lose the natural look I've got. Do you think a hearty variety of goldfish might withstand the rock bottom, like these two I have?

    I do want to get a water sample of where I stand and will post that. And while everything I have read today supports what you are saying about bottom rocks/koi, I'm going to have to discuss with the wife if we want to have fish, because we really like the natural look.

    Thank you very much for the info!!
    KK
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  10. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    If what you want is a rushing waterfall in pond one, then don't put fish in it. Keep the fish in the 2nd pond. An 800pgh pump can also provide a very good rush of water.

    Yes, you can use those black baskets for planting pond plants they sell at HD/Lowes.

    I take no offense to anything you've said. In the end, the pond is your own and you will do as you wish. A liner pond doesn't "clean itself," a captive pond is not natural. And you shouldn't think of it as such. In a real pond, water is able to be refreshed through the water table, etc. In a liner pond, that water cannot refresh itself--only we humans can do that. Think of it as a toilet bowl. Unless you flush it every time, the thing can get pretty stinky. A pond is just that, a toilet, with your fish pooping and peeing in it. People put rocks in the pond to help make it look "natural" in their eyes. But a liner will develop a thin layer of algae and that plastic look disappears in a month. And it's 100% easy to clean the bottom.

    Goldfish are super hardy. In my existing pond, the previous owner never did a water change, the water was pea green soup, no filtration, and 1 foot of muck. The 12 comet golfish survived. Koi are not like that, and they require much more care in their water quality.

    Let the others here also tell you about rock bottoms. You will hear about many of them who removed the rocks.

    Like I said, Koikiller, we can only give you advice/suggestions. You then make the decision to take it or not. And I take no offense by your choice, as everyone will need to do as they want with their own pond.

    :)
     
    koikeepr, May 1, 2010
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  11. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    Thanks - ok, did the water testing on the two ponds, and I am frying my fishes gills in Pond 2 (he newer/bigger one):

    POND 1 -400-500 gallons, 4 years old, two big goldfish that survive everything:
    PH -7.6
    AMONIA - 0 PPM
    NITRATE No2 - 0 PPM
    NITRATE No3 - 7 PPM

    POND 2 (The pond of death) 1,000 gals, 2 years old, 3.....er, 2 remaining Koi:
    PH 7.6
    AMONIA - 3 PPM
    NITRATE No2 - 2 PPM
    NITRATE No3 - 0 PPM

    Of the 3 Koi left in pond 2 , one was dead, so I took the skimmer and jiggled it against the cover rock I have in the deep end, and the two left came flying out, up and down the pond - I was able to catch one and moved him into pond 1 with the two goldfish, but I'm betting he won't be around long - I can't catch the 2nd one,but will keep trying somehow those two have been able to withstand the amonia.

    And what I STILL can't understand - I put 12 Koi in EACH pond, about a week ago and you would think I'd still have a bunch in pond one with those counts - but same problem - both ponds kill the fish!

    Question on the Nitrate No3 - is that showing I have good biological count in pond 1 and none in pond 2? I've always suspected the tiny waterfall in Pond 2 wasn't enough to give me good biological counts - I think I'm going to buy another biofall and put it right in front of the footbridge and cover it - that way it will till pour under the bridge, but will give me the biofall I need to rid the amonia - I won't be adding any fish to this pond, until I can get that Amonia under control naturally. At that point I MAY try the harty goldfish, and remove SOME of the rocks! :lol:
    Thanks again Koikeepr!
    KK
     
    KoiKiller, May 1, 2010
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  12. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    Your ammonia in pond 2 is killing your fish. (I promise not to mention the debris and junk in those rocks as I say this........Oops!)

    Ammonia is the #1 cause of death. Until you get that figure to 0, you need to not add any fish to that pond. You need to keep doing water changes until it improves. Do a 50% water change asap. Do a 25% water change in 2-3 days and another one in 2-3 days. If the ammonia number doesn't go down after that. Then you'll know what it is (hint, hint, they are round and hard and sitting at the bottom of your pond! LOL!)

    Clean your filter media. You use tap water, so you are killing your bacteria every time and the pond is unable to cycle properly. At least listen to me on that one. Use pond water. Go to the petstore and buy zeolite and put it in a net bag to help get that ammonia into a non-toxic stage as much as possible.

    Do you mean nitrite or nitrate? Nitrates are usually measures in figures of 200-300, which is what is acceptable. Read the directions and see if one of the figures is nitrites.

    You need to get used to doing regular water changes. Particularly because of the you-know-what's on your pond floor.

    Nitrites are measured in figures like 1, 2, 3. The nitrite figure needs to be ZERO as it is poison. That's the only acceptable number reading in a pond. Nitrates are the #2 killer of pond fish. This usually means that you have bad bacteria that is converting the ammonia into nitrates. Again, water changes will help here. Some pond salt will also help neutralize the nitrates a bit.

    Koi do really poorly in high ammonia. They don't tolerate it well. Your goldfish have likely gotten used to the situation and have adapted. Koi are not like that.

    Bio falls don't provide enough space for enough bio. You need to DIY a barrel or a tote.
     
    koikeepr, May 1, 2010
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  13. KoiKiller

    jethro13 jethro13

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    first of all welcome. Yes, when I first built my pond I thought you have to have rocks in the bottom of the pond.I was wrong. Really, in the long run I would get bored with a pond that didn't have fish.Tell you what, remove the rocks from one pond clean the muck out of the bottom and start over as kind of an experiment. Get your biofilter in order and don't forget floating plants like water lettuce etc. as this will help with water quality also, Believe me we have all made mistakes in this process I'm sure somebody on the forum will come up with the answer you need
     
    jethro13, May 1, 2010
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  14. KoiKiller

    KoiKiller

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    Back with an update!

    First, a HUGE, HUGE thanks to Koikeepr. You told me the rocks in the bottom were the biggest problem, AND YOU WERE CORRECT. After posting here, my 5 year old and I climbed into the pond, and began the backbreaking task of removing ALL the rocks from the bottom of our pond. Each time we picked one up, the water got darker and darker - the muck underneath those rocks was unreal and my pond water was clear too. After getting most of the rocks out, I decided to just drain the pond and start over. I didn't want to drain it and lose the beneficial bacteria, so I decided not to clean the filters, but drain the whole pond. I was orginially going to vacuum it out with my Pondvac 2, but that damn thing has NEVER worked well, and it's going in the trash (and still looks new). So after draining the pond, I broke out the shopvac and sucked the liner clear and it looked like new again.

    Filled it back up, added declorinator, and later in the day started up the waterfall/pressure filter again. My water never went green again, so it appears the bacteria survived in the filters and I also added some new.

    At that point, I purchased 12 feeder goldfish for each pond, to see what would happen. The water test showed good, so I fgured I'd try it. I've only lost 2 goldfish - after the first day and attribute that to stress. The rest are healthy and happy in both ponds. In the smaller pond, I covered the high volume pump with a mesh planting basket, but get this - they have made that their home under there, and NONE have gotten sucked into the pump - I don''t get it...lol. All other fish would get sucked into it, and they found an entrance in there, and LIKE it??? Oh well, the 11 of them are happy.

    After seeing that the fish did well, I decided to take my son and go get 6 Koi. We took our time picking them out - they are just domestic ones, but we got one really pretty yellow one - looks spray painted almost. It's been about a month now, and all are healthy and well and we are now HAND FEEDING THEM! Watching my 5 year old giggle as they peck the food out of his hands is one of the things I had wanted, and he loves it. The goldfish are the first ones to the feeding area and are even more social then I would have thought. We started "announcing" when they would be fed, by splashing the water a little before feeding and now you can't even swish once or you might hit one..lol. Soon as you take a pinch of food and lower your hand, they start fighting/sucking it out of your hands. It's wonderful!!

    I can't tell you how much fun it's been to watch the Koi - If you look at the feeding area in the photo, it's like a "gravel beach" - well, the Koi are loving it and hunch their backs and are coming up out of the water and burying in the gravel to get at any ants/bugs they can find - it's really fun to watch, then they turn and fall back into the water. Only problem there is I have to vacuum up the gravel they wash in. I'm using a cheap $25 sauna/hotub vacuum with a net bag and it's perfect for clearing the bottom. I do it about once a week or so - depending on how messy the Koi get - they keep knocking the clay-litter-soil out of the water lilly planters and I have to keep vacuuming that up.

    I also put 6 water lettuce plants in, that have now covered almost the entire pond. I've had to throw some out, so we could see and feed the fish. While it offers protection and shade, I don't like how fast it EXPLODES in size. I swear overnight, after removing some, it launches out new growth and recovers what I took off the day before!..lol.

    Today I will be FINALLY adding my homebuilt rubbermaid biofall to the side of the footbridge which will enhance the natural filtration that seems to have taken over well. I have a nice very fine blanket of algae along the liner bottom and the fish and plants are thriving.

    When I get a chance, I'll post some pics and maybe a feeding video of our new family members! Thanks to this forum (and KoiKeepr) I am no longer a Koi Killer!!..lol.
     
    KoiKiller, Jun 26, 2010
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  15. KoiKiller

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    dont throw away your water lettuce and hiacynths if youve got them once in while sell them on craigslist...use the cash for your next bag of food or other pond needs. i sell my overages and fish on craigslist and a couple hours on a saturday and i can go shopping! on the hand feeding...its one of my favorite parts of ponding, and my daughter is 17 and screeches and yanks her hand back every time she tries handfeeding...its comical...i didnt buy any lettuce or hiacynths this year tho.
     
    koiguy1969, Jun 26, 2010
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  16. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    KoiKiller, it sounds like you might now have to change your screen name. LOL!

    Am so happy to hear how well your ponds are doing. And, yes, with rocks even tho your water looks clear because the muck is all all settled under the stone crevices--does not mean that you don't have an issue on your hands. That muck is poison and toxins just sitting in there ruining your water and the lives of the fish.

    I know it was a massive effort to get those rocks out, but you can now see it was well worth the effort.

    A few of those feeder goldies likely died because in pet stores they are kept in very crowded conditions and virtually ignored. Lots of times they are diseased or just had tough lives from the moment they've hatched. So, it's likely nothing you did, it was as you said stress and the fact that they just come from negative conditions.

    Don't add any more fish koikiller. You're already at very high levels, especially having added those koi. Maje sure to get that new filter up and running as soon as you can to keep everything in tip top shape.

    With that number of fish, do keep up your weekly 20% water changes. This will be important for you particularly during summer when we tend to feed more.

    I look forward to hearing how it all progresses.
     
    koikeepr, Jun 26, 2010
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  17. KoiKiller

    DrDave Innovator Moderator

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    I love to hear success stories. Sounds like you are on the right track to a healthy pond.
     
    DrDave, Jun 26, 2010
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  18. KoiKiller

    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    You are a wonderful writer, koi killer!. At this time I most likely will have rocks in our pond, but we are not doing fish, or if we have fish there will be very few and not koi. There is a lot of debate about rocks, even other searches (ie not this forum) will give you both opinions.

    The long and short of what I have read recently is that koi need very good filtration and no rocks. They make lots of toilet material to get cleaned out of the water.

    Good luck, keep us appraised.
     
    addy1, Jun 28, 2010
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  19. KoiKiller

    koikeepr

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    Knowing what you've read about rocks, Addy, not sure why you'd go with rocks. This is not specific to koi...it's any fish in a pond. Just say no to stones.
     
    koikeepr, Jun 28, 2010
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  20. KoiKiller

    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    Thanks will keep all the above in mind when we finally get the liner and move forward.
     
    addy1, Jun 28, 2010
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