Please help with my second pond (I want to get it right this time!)

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I think I will post all my future questions on this thread so as to avoid cluttering the forum.

I built my first pond practically by myself over a two year period starting when I was 14, and it was pretty much a complete disaster.

I won't go too much into details, but Imagine a teenage boy deciding he wants a pond, checking out a dozen or so books from the library for research, and deciding to make a 14'X15' approximately circular pond with just a pump and fountain (no filter) :yikesu:
It's been about 11 years now, And I think I'm finally ready to try again.
(I would like to try to fix the old pond, but we've moved since then.)

I don't have the details hammered out yet, but I'm thinking of a rectangular tiered inground/aboveground hybrid pond that would be 10'x15' and 5' deep at the deepest point, and have a volume of somewherebetween 3000 and 4500 gallons and run on 4 55 gal
skippy filters in tandem on two pumps.

The fish I would like to include are:

Dalmation color variety of the latipinna species of sailfin molly (max 5.5 inches, usually 3"-4")
While This species is native to my area, selective breeing may have made it unsuitable for life in an outdoor pond. If so, I guess I'll collect the wild form instead.

Rosy red minnows 3"-4"

Comet and/or shubunkin Goldfish

Still haven't decided between orangepotted sunfish (max 6" usually 3-4")
or longear sunfish (max 9", usually 4"-6".)

Golden weather loach.

Okay, finally the questions.

#1: Can anyone give me a recommended stocking rate for these fish with this size pond and filtration?

#2 Would it be possible to run the filter year-round in my area? (I live in zone 8b, which means an average minimum temp of 20 to 15 degrees, but it gets down to 10 degrees about every 5 years or so.)

#3 What type of biomedia is fairly cheap, rarely channels or clogs, and can have plants growing directly in it to add veggie filtration?

#4 How steeply should I slope the floor of the pond so that all the "gunk" collects at one spot?
 
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Hi Jeremy. Good luck with the new pond. it sounds very exciting. I can take a stab at your first question. Probably your pond can hold about 150 inches of fish with no problem (25-30 5 inch fish). Obviously fish grow and also reproduce so you don't want to start out with the max. There are some people here that would argue it can hold more, but you are better to start out with fewer and build up when you know your filter and you can handle the required work. The lower the bio-load the easier it will be to maintain it. Also I don't know if you remember, but you definitely need to read up on how to cycle a pond before you add any fish. Calculations are as follows: 5 inches of fish per 100 gallons equals 150 inches at 3000 gallons or 1 inch of fish per square foot surface area so 150 sq ft equals 150 inches of fish. Remember these are very general rules of thumb and as you get experienced working with your pond you will be able to decide how many fish you actually want to have.
 
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I was about 6 years old when I adopted a farm pond. I hear you.

Of the fish listed I only know the Goldfish. So, for what it's worth...

#1 - I can't. Like CometKeith said, general rules. Better than nothing. But if for example you do 10% water changes every day, have enough bio filtering you can have a huge fish load. Check out Youtube videos by Andy Moo if interested. He talks about Koi, but a lot is useful for water gardens.

Like Andy says, feeding level is much more important than stocking level. The amount of food put into the pond drives everything else.

Testing water condition is really the only thing that tells the story. Everything else is just guesses.

#2 - Skippy filters are combo filters. Some people think they're bio filters, others think they're mechanical filters, many seem to think they're both (combo). If you're using it as a bio filter to convert ammonia you can shutdown at water temp of 39F as the bacteria stop. Best info I've found.. As temp drops ammonia is converted to non toxic ammonium. Test kits test total ammonia. There are charts used with pH and temp that tell what percentage of "total ammonia" is toxic.

The bacteria will live down to 32F, but for some reason it seems most water gardeners dry out their media for the winter. I assume because they don't actually need a filter for their fish load.

If you think your Skippy is a mechanical filter it will keep doing that until frozen.

#3 - Pea gravel or drain rock (1" river rock). Used in a stream, bog or Trickle Tower these don't clog and are cheap. Stream and Trickle Tower have the advantage of much higher O2 and so out perform Skippy as bio filters. Skippy filters are only used in the water garden hobby. Fish farmers and serious Koi keepers use Trickle Towers or Shower filters when using DIY filters.

#4 - It's basically impossible to slope the floor of a pond so gunk "slides". Only works for marbles and golf balls. This is because gunk is nearly weightless. It's like having sloped floors in outer space...does nothing. Tangential feeds from the pump are used to move gunk. They're arranged to produce a current. A flat bottom is as good as sloped, but some slope can't hurt. The placement of the feeds and shape of the pond walls are what's important.
 

sissy

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It sounds like what you are doing is similar to my pond .I used retaining wall block for the outside of my pond and concrete block for the interior wall and insulated the iterior wall with foam core board .I'm afraid I don't have any build pics as it was done before I got a digital camera .






 
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Regarding your fish:
Rosy red's are great for a pond as they tend to inhabit the edges (especially if you add piles of larger rocks that they can use as caves). If you are buying them from a fish store, expect to have a large number of deaths, as the ones bred as feeders are in terrible health when you get them. I have started growing some indoors to get them healthy by Spring. Out of 6 dozen purchased, I probably have about 2 dozen survivors (so far).

Golden weather loaches might work out OK in your zone. Keep in mind the regular weather loaches will be hardier and grow slightly larger. Also, weather loaches are a community fish, and they will be less stressed if you keep three or more together.

You might also look in to darters. The greenside darters were pointed out to me recently, and appear to be a very interesting addition to a pond. I'm hoping to find some for my own pond this year.

As for adding the fish... I definitely agree with the others - start slowly and add a few at a time. Add a bag full of rosies, give the pond a couple weeks to adjust. Add a few goldfish, wait another couple weeks. I would suggest it is better to add one type of fish at a time, and let those fish find their place in the pond, before adding something new.

Regarding the filters, I purchased a roll of plastic strapping (used for binding boxes that you are going to ship). Spool some of this off into several mesh laundry bags (the type with the drawstring), and you can easily pull the media out of the filter for cleaning an maintenance. This stuff makes a good bio media and doesn't seem to clog at all. Unlike many folks here, I kep my pumps running year-round. Even though there is little or no biological filtration during the Winter, I like the keep the water moving constantly. This helps with oxygenation, the waterfall keeps a hole open in the ice, and I just personally feel that it is better to never let the water sit still and potentially stagnate. My pond gets a lot of sun in the Winter so my water temperature generally stays above the mid 30's. Of course your pond will be different, and the choice of leaving the pumps running may depend on different factors.

Unfortunately you'll never get the gunk to obey your wishes. I designed my pond to have a constant flow from one end to the other, through a stream and into a smaller pond. This helps somewhat with collecting leaves and such in the Fall, but there is still plenty of stuff that has to be more directly collected. Despite my water flow, I still have leaves pile up in my stream. They just won't play fair! The best you can do is design a settling area for most of the junk to collect, and then resign yourself to the fact that you will still have to manually clean the rest of the pond.
 

sissy

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I have never heard of rosey reds until on here are they easy going if you get healthy ones and do they do well with koi or will they just be on the dinner plate .
 
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Sissy - folks keep telling me that the koi won't eat them. I'm not certain, but I've never seen one of the biger fish go after the rosies. I have a couple dozen in the pond that are 2 years old and doing fine - but trying to get more to survive seems to be an issue. Once they're used to the pond conditions, they do just fine, and they are native to the N. American midwest, so they can handle the Winters with no problem. They will eat plants and moss, and also steal fish food from in front of the koi, so they don't appear to be worried about becoming food.
 

addy1

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I put three rosies into my lotus pond with a few goldfish to keep bugs under control. The goldfish disappeared (most likely heron sushi), that pond had no heron protection. Today I saw 10 rosies, there may be more in that pond, it has no filtration, just an aerator.

We were not cold this winter, but they seem to have done just fine. I may put a few in the big pond, but I keep hearing people say they will over populate. But then again they only live 2-3 years. I like their color a nice orange pink, little fast moving fish

Gunk has a mind of its own shdwdrgn, and leaves are even worse. With out a good snow load, to mash the suckers, we still have whole leaves blowing around just like in the fall. Someone has a tree that has leaves larger than my hand, this last wind storm filled my skimmer with them.

with zone 8b, jeremy, you should be able to run your pond year round. Here in the colder winters, I shut mine off so we don't get a ice block that would nicely drain the pond. I do put in a aerator to keep the water moving. My bog sat full of water all winter, I thought it would really stink when I turned it on again, but it smelled just like a pond, no bad smells.
 
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Mine keep trying to spawn, but I think the other fish are eating all the eggs. Each year I see males staking out their territory, and I see fat females swimming around, but I've never seen any babies. Hopefully that will change as the roots of my new water plants fill in around the rocks.
 

addy1

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So they stake out territory, will watch for that. Once it gets closer to lotus growing time I will be cleaning the lotus tank, but now need to think........wonder if the rosies laid eggs.
 
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Thanks for the replies everybody!

I think I've figured out a way to get most of the gunk to go where I want it. :lamp5:
To do this, I've scrapped the rectangular design and will go with a 12'-14' pond that's as close to a perfect circle as I can get it.
I will then attempt to arrange the pump intake and output pipes in such a way as to create a weak spiraling current.
If it works correctly, this will essentialy turn the entire pond itself into a giant vortex filter. :claphands:

I've also figured out a way to hide the filter in plain sight.
After doing the calculations for a proper size biofilter I noticed something interesting about it's dimensions.
If I make it of brick and liner, 3.5' wide and 3.5' deep (I can partially bury it to make it 2.5 feet tall because it will be near a drainage ditch.) then with a few props I can make it look like an abandoned Well! :yellowbounce:

I agree with you cometkieth, the "inches per spuare foot" should only be used as a very general rule of thumb, I mean, that's really obvious if you do the math.
All other things being equal a 12" goldfish is 4 times the inches of a 3 inch goldfish, but it has about 32 times the volume and presumably would produce 32 times as much waste. :yikesu:

Sorry waterbug, trickle towers may be more efficient, but I just can't think of a way to hide one. :dunno: Also, I would prefer a biomedium that's easier on the back while cleaning it than gravel.

That's a great pond sissy!

Well, if you can run your pond year-round in zone 5 shadwdrgn, then I definitely see no reason why I shouldn't run mine.
If weather loaches have to be kept in schools, then I'll just skip them altogether, as I don't want them potentially breeding and escaping (they are classified as a potentially invasive species here.)
Oh yes, I'll definitely add the rosies first, as they are supposed to be especially good at mosquito control. I was thinking the mollies a few weeks later as they also eat a lot of mosquito larvae when young, and start specializing more in algae as they get older. Follwing the mollies, I would add the goldies, and probably not add the sunfish until the next year.
I think I will add the straps for the bottom 3 quarters of the biofilter, putting scouring sponges on the top as I've heard of people successfully growing plants in them.

Yes Sissy, from what I've heard rosy reds are tough as nails as long as they start out healthy.
I have heard of koi occasionally eating rosies, but I don't think they would try very hard as long as they were well fed. also I think that a healthy rosy could fairly easily avoid being eaten by the slower fancy-tailed koi, but I could be wrong. :blush:
Thank you for confirming that I will be ble to run my pond year-round, addy.
Also, regaring your question on rosy breeing, from what I've read they spawn in cavities.
I've heard of people getting them to breed in aquariums by prviding upside-down clay saucers, overturned clay flowerpots, coconut halves, and rock caves. Rosies also seem to breed on the floor of an aquarium, so they may prefer the cave at the bottom of the pond.
Also, if the rosies ever over-populate, you could try putting some bread in a minnow trap and get them out that way.
 

koiguy1969

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Jeremy...you dont often see a bakki shower or a trickle filter on ponds other than formal ponds where they can be incorperated as a decorative show piece for just that reason. theyre fed from the top and the entire filter has to be above pond level becuse the water exits from the bottom... its a hard job to incorperate either into a "natural" looking pond, unless its remotely located and feeding a stream.
 

addy1

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Jeremy, look into tpr's Tangential Pond Returns, they make the water move in a nice spiral type flow. They are installed on the sides of the pond.
 
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Jeremy, look into tpr's Tangential Pond Returns, they make the water move in a nice spiral type flow. They are installed on the sides of the pond.
Thanks addy, will do.

Jeremy...you dont often see a bakki shower or a trickle filter on ponds other than formal ponds where they can be incorperated as a decorative show piece for just that reason. theyre fed from the top and the entire filter has to be above pond level becuse the water exits from the bottom... its a hard job to incorperate either into a "natural" looking pond, unless its remotely located and feeding a stream.
Koiguy, I have a question.
While on the site wetwebmedia.com, I found this design for an upflow filter.
pond%20filtgraphicwwm.jpg





I was wondering if you thought the aeration tower would signicantly increase biofiltration if incorporated into a skippy filter?
 

koiguy1969

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no i dont see that "aeration" tube doing much unless its fed via a venturi set up. a $5.00 air pump and a couple of stones would be far more effective.
 

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