PondMutt Land Between the Rivers Tenn.

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by PondMutt, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    Hi ,,
    this forum seems active and Friendly ? the other koi forum im on seems quite +elitist+ and some there were ugly to me . I did not want to get in a FLAME WAR with one of the admin, just want to share my experience , get and give advice. .
    i do not want to name no names but would share a link on PM to that string , i have a 13.5 K gallon tank in terminal failure and threw up a 12 ft dia 4 deep rescue tank ,
    ill share some pic . i really wanted to put the rescue tank in a different place but req. ground leveling and could not hire help. .

    images pending

    i guess ill start a string maybe in construction and filtering , task Catch Fish , transfer to rescue .
    Question : Fish Load

    here is one reference for fish load
    https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/95
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
    PondMutt, Feb 24, 2017
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  2. PondMutt

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan, Feb 24, 2017
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  3. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    it is an old document true ,but a nice starting place , i wonder about 300 inches of fish in un-areated113 sqft surface . . unareated might be interpreted as +still water+ . my rescue is a 12 foot dia = 113 sg ft surface est 3300 Gallon , circulated through bio-filter assy. . the barrel +leaf trap + shows a 4 inch draw down via 8 foot of 3 inch with 4 each 45 degrees , . retro Bottom drain. ,
    i
    i would be pleased to discuss those items in initial document you consider mis-information . and pick them apart betwixt the 2 of us .. if the consensus is bad data , we can send them a missive. but I THINK it is a pretty good initial read .
    here is a 2013 document for the more advanced .
    https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/104
    ""A very low fish density (<1/8 pound of fish per gallon or <15 kg/m3) is commonly used for broodstock and display applications
    ""
    you are very correct in saying fish load depends on bio-reactor surface AND the efficiency of the bio-reactor .
    if i load to 1/10 vice 1/8 that would be 330 lbs fish .
    in a commercial application generally accepted Maximum Standing Crop would be half pound fish/ gallon .1500 lbs of fish in the rescue wowowow . better have a very well designed bio-reactor system , and battery backup.. at that load .. of course we do not have commercial application though i try to design to accepted industry standard. .
    once upon atime i think i remember seeing reference that 250 sq/ft bio reactor surface operating maximum efficiency could deal with Half Pound feed a day .. can not find reference , can you help ..
    feed rate is ..least as is possible for me , inital doc referenced indicates maint. is 1% fish weight . so with 300 lbs fish that would be 3 lbs a day ,, I NEVER feed 3 lbs.. like one guy said I ain't never seen a fish starve to death but loads died from bad water from excess food.
    really , im not a Garden Pond / decorative pond guy/ ,, im a aqua-ponics fellow . i like to harvest rainfall , grow fish and drain the +slum+ out on the grow beds .
    just that last forum .. upset me . just looking for an active fish forum to share and participate with
    i saw that guy down in ariz. post abt game fish .. you should see the pic of the F1 Bluegill i netted out , wow what a pretty fish

    and there is another big question .. how to catch these +whales + i call them ,, pulled several 19 inch koi and at least one 22 incher ..
    how to treat them on transfer .. o been dropping them in a little kiddepool with a high salt .. for measurement and evaluation .. . i think i might have moved 100 inches , or was it 200 ,, got length measure on every moved fish and pics on all but the first couple .. { wow one of the first was a very nice Yamabuki Ogan upards of 20 inches ]

    standingby .. i got pics
    tried to upload media to a media file i opened , message + pending approval +
    idk yet if the pics went up or not..
    was old tank new tank and detail BD rescue ..

    better have a good bottom drain on EVERYTHING IMHO .
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
    PondMutt, Feb 24, 2017
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  4. PondMutt

    Becky Administrator

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    Welcome to the forum :)
     
    Becky, Feb 24, 2017
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  5. PondMutt

    MitchM

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    Welcome!
    Are you asking about fish load specifically for the rescue tank?
    If so, how many, what size, what species, what filtration/circulation setup do you plan and how long will the fish be in the rescue tank?
    If you're having trouble loading pics, try posting directly in your forum posts instead.
     
    MitchM, Feb 24, 2017
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  6. PondMutt

    sissy sissy

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    Welcome and I used a swimming pool net and my koi are over 2 feet long .I made sure that I had a cover for the net and made sure the container I was transferring them too was as close as possible .I have done it twice in 2 years and it did get easier with practice .I bought a big pool net from a swimming pool place .I used a flat net for a top as I moved them .I did not feed them for 10 days just to make sure they would not produce more waste .I think it helps them with the stress level .I did not use any salt at all in the tank .
     
    sissy, Feb 24, 2017
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  7. PondMutt

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I might be reading your post wrong but it appears to me that you are confusing terminology. You are citing rates for fish density for determining fish load.
    Two different things.
    Fish density is the is the number or biomass of fish per unit of volume. Fish load is the fish biomass that can be supported by the existing SSA (Specific Surface Area).
    The flaw in your first linked SRAC document is determining stocking levels (fish load) by fish per sq/ft of surface area. No consideration is mentioned as to water depth which would, of course, greatly affect ultimate water quality within that certain surface area.
    Any meaningful calculations that you make for determining a viable fish load for your rescue tank must be based on available SSA with additional attention given to the flow rate.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Feb 24, 2017
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  8. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    thank you for the nice welcome and responses .
    im going to open a string elsewhere about my current effort. But should it be in DIY or Pond Construction and equipment . Which do you think ? . '
    i am easily confused. .this is why i need help.
    SSA (Specific Surface Area). would this be the surface area available for bio-conversion in the bio-reactors ? .
    the installed rescue tank is a 12 foot Dia 54 inch wall above ground +bathing pool+ about 4 feet of water . retro bottom drain and in tank retro skimmer , piped with 3 inch [image in media] . I was going to run this to the existing sump , about 500 gallon ,spent all winter piping and extending the top to match water lvl on the rescue, then when i fed water to it the side blew , it was/is a 15 yr old installation. i was sick . i have to move these fish NOW.
    fitted a DIY +leaf trap+ to small to call it a sump , in a 55 G blue barrel top cut out it was a surge/plenum kinda thing in the old system , 4 inch pipe in the side near the bottom , 2 inch drain [knife valved] additional 2 inch pump take off [ ball valved] .on blocks to meet /match water surface [ all pumps off and drained back] , an open plastic + thing+ in the bottom lifts 2 sheets of Blue Matala cut round to fit [ that is some bio- reactor surface . ] current pump is my rescue submersible pump ,pump is in a milk crate lined with green matala . rest of the area with brush. an alpine submersible 8000 . with a dial-a flow [ think maybe im flowing 4K gallon /hr] fed to a big eductor mid level and a 100 G stock tank. stock tank upflow has 2 each 2 inch returns . loaded with + mixed media+ in bags. , 2 cubic ft of kaldness type [ destined for another diy reactor vessel] big bag of plastic scrubbers, a big bag of PVC turnings , bag of deer netting crammed in ,bag of brushes i forget what all .. next time im in there ill inventory .
    tied off in the tank is a big bag of strap. 4 more big bags to move from the failing tank but my energy levels are low. the bags in the tank will be working at less than optimum since the flow is low [ just circulation from the eductor] . the kaldness type floating media is intended for a down flow .i fave a 55 G blue i could use but first a 6 foot long 10 inch PVC sewer pipe i scrounged , got a cap for the bottom , gonna drill a hole near bottom for a 2 inch insert , ball valve , tee that off inside and put on some screens for the media , feed water from top [ball valve] put my bubblers in there , down flow bubbled with floating media .
    i calculated current flow 2 ways . first on the draw down in the leaf trap . 4 1/2 inches .. thats from the BD /skimmer assy piped with 3 inch . second was on the flow from the 2 each 2 inch returns , im carrying more than 2 inches water over those short 2 inch pipes , est 1500 Gallon each . yet to do is the 5 gallon bucket + timed+ method. ..
    so then , how much load can 500 sq ft bio reactor surface handle ..just the tank has 260 sq foot . floating media in bags has 250 the cu ft[ working below optimum] lord alone knows about the sq ft on the rest of the agglutination media .. over at the failing tank i have a couple barrel media , big rounds of grey matala , and rolls of spring flow .. when i can get my fish moved will put those biofilters on line rescue..

    excuse me , lots my remark are stream of consciousness ..

    BTW .. unable to catch these fish out with a net on a stick . they faster and smarter than me .. recording measurement on each fish moved and pics too. as to type of fish . koi , goldfish shubunkin , Blue gill[ what a niche big old fish caufgr and some small , large mouth bass .. maybe a pickerel .. blugill (Large).jpg
     

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    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  9. PondMutt

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Specific Surface Area (SSA) as applies to fish ponds includes any submerged surface. The inside surfaces of the pond basin, the interior surfaces of all plumbing components, the interior surfaces of any filter modules. Add to this the surface area of any gravel, stone and/or rock that is submerged, the submerged portions of any aquatic plantings including the roots. In other words,if it is under water it can be included in the total SSA available. Any media in the biofilter is supplemental to this basic pond SSA. Any typical flat surface such as liner, PVC etc. is assigned an SSA of 1, i.e. 100 sq/ft of liner would have a SSA of 100.
    The exact type of biofilter media is and the total ft2/ft3 of each media before the total SSA of that media can be obtained.
    Adding all of these together will give you a close approximation of the maximum fish load that your pond can handle.
    To determine the SSA required for an existing fish load, total number of fish and their lengths can be used to determine total TAN (Ammonia) produced each day. From this figure total required SSA can be computed.
    Given the DIY nature of your set-up, only you are in a position to determine your needs. I can only guide you as to how to make this determination.
    Here are a chart listing SSA values of different media-

    SSA ratings chart.jpg
     
    Meyer Jordan, Feb 26, 2017
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  10. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    what a nice and quick response . quite informative
    my complements .
    i understand SSA = bio reactor surface .. also to be considered is dwell time in the bio-reactor ,, efficiency .. , with 2 cubic foot floating media rated at 250 the cu . dont mean its working at that rate . currently in bags ..

    i am recording fish lengths .. your response informative to me and all in future who may view . ..

    but: \: imagine i have 1000 sq ft SSA // .. [ a good round number ] ..
    what is the possible load .. .. some commercial reference would indicate 250 sq ft media would handle Half pound of food ADDED . feed rate on grown out fish is 1 % .. ,, commercial ..
    im so confused
    it is such a chore casting out these fish .. i told spouse .. some will live ,, some will die .. we must choose .. who will ave a chance to live and who will die .
    the excess ,, could be thrown down the hill ,for the forest gods to feed buried in the planting beds
    or then carried down to the river ,, quite an illegal behavior // but ya know the Cumberland river is quite already contaminated ...

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    wonder if a member is in Tennessee
    break break
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  11. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    IF i can execute . i will load as much SSA as is required .. .. to a minimum load of 300 lbs fish . .. got a pump available , and a pull point . , got a tank .. ,
    i expect media shipped .. .expeditiously . ...

    can do ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
     
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  12. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    what a terrible time i am having with this forum product . i put up a couple pics , the bluegill for example how did i do that ..trying now to load up more fish pictures .. unable .. it is not like i never was online , i was on the Fidonet long ago, .. so old ,, so confused , i strive
     
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  13. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    HPIM1195 (Large).jpg all want to do is go to local disk and load a file up . not such a difficult thing .. a fish pic,, i did it why can i not find the link now ..

    kinda makes me think since i am unable the forum product . needs work ,,
    should be easy and transparent .. oooopszs maybe it is instead of examining the icons at the top , examine the tabs at the bottom

    what a dumb bunny i am
     
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  14. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    i am quite unsure how that pic of the old failing tank , when it was at full water level got put on , I NEVER SELECTED IT . but i leave it up . , a mystery
     
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  15. PondMutt

    PondMutt

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    i should get out in the dawn and do a picture,, water level in the failing tank is down to about 17 inches , ..gotta save the fish from there .make ya sick looking at it . . that failing tank , each inch water is 300 gallon . so with 17 inches = 5000 gallon .. but then there are deeper pools on the ends .. but the pump is not pumping for flip in the low water failing tank ..
    poor big fish , no longer have 36 feet to swim . i think they be more likely to live in the rescue .. no doubt they will die in the leaking tank .

    oooooooooohhaaa ooooooo...
     
    PondMutt, Feb 26, 2017
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  16. PondMutt

    MitchM

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    This isn't the easiest thread to follow.

    So far:
    Pool leaking with fish in it.
    Unknown number of fish
    What to do with the fish

    Do not put the fish in the local river!
    There is probably a local aquaponics group that would be willing to take the fish.

    Correct so far?


    If so, can you post a picture of where you want to transfer the fish?
    Are you monitoring the water chemical parameters of the "rescue tank"?
    After the fish are transferred to a new location we can then talk setup for their new larger permanent home.

    The rest of the information and discussion is putting the cart before the horse.

    .
     
    MitchM, Feb 26, 2017
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    sissy sissy

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    My neighbor brought me over those 2000 gallon plastic tanks that have a meta cage around them to put my fish in .I got bad disks at office max for my camera so all my pics are lost .He uses them to catch water and cut the tops out of them .He has since did what I did and put a tank in the ground and left the top on and ran his gutters to it .The other way attracts mosquito's
     
    sissy, Feb 26, 2017
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  18. PondMutt

    DeepWater The Great Abyss

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    Attracts, breeds, and releases mosquitos!
     
    DeepWater, Feb 26, 2017
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  19. PondMutt

    sissy sissy

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    It depends on how you use them .My underground tank has a pipe that comes out above ground and I put a top on the pipe and when I need water I add fertilizer and drop a pump down attached to a hose and water my yard and plants .Ponds also breed mosquito's .My above ground tank gets mosquito dunks in it and fertilizer in them and they have tops on them .I have seen more stuffed up gutters and garbage cans attracting mosquito's than rain barrels .Even watering cans and buckets left out will attract them .You need to always think about things before you do a project .
     
    sissy, Feb 26, 2017
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  20. PondMutt

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Actually it has been shown that increasing RT (resident time) in a biofilter can actually have a negative impact on total TAN removal.
    A flow rate of 1.5 - 2.0 of total pond (tank) volume is indicated for medium to high stocking levels. In your case, using your figures of 300 lbs. fish in a 5,000 gallon tank, you would have a stocking density of about 7 kg/m3 which is considered a medium loading rate. So a flow rate of at least 7500 gph is indicated.
    It should also be pointed out that a 1% body weight feeding regime is quite low and will not allow for any growth or weight gain in the fish. It will just barely maintain their metabolic rate. Most RAS systems employ a feeding level of 3%, but their goal is to promote weight gain at the fastest rate. I would recommend for your purposes no less than 2%.

    I have to agree. @PondMutt, your writing style is quite difficult to follow. Too much unnecessary information.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Feb 26, 2017
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