possible saprolegnia?

[capewind]

About a week or so ago, maybe closer to two weeks ago, a warm spell, the fish were up, swimming around ... I thought I saw a mark about the size of a dime on my goromo (about 16-18" standard fin koi) ... couldnt get a good look, but could have been a scrape, so figured watch and see ... It got cold again, and back to the bottom all the fish went. Today, everyone is swimming around the pond, even nibbling on what's left of the parrots feather, including the goromo ... Went out to check on his "spot" and it is rather large, puffy, and cotton looking. Looks fungal. Quick research (with pictures) looks like saprolegnia ... the spot is forward on the body, between the dorsal and pectoral fins (neither look affected), and a good inch back from the gill plate ... I am going to guess the spot to be a good 2 - 2.5" wide, and about an inch high...

Immediately checked the water quality, and everything tests out as it should. I am GUESSING low immunity due to winter/cold, plus injury equaled the oppurtunity for a fungal infection ... I have only had exxperience once with a fungus (different type) ... bought a fish that had minor fin rot (water it was shipped in was gross, so guessed water quality was the issue) ... didnt do anything other than keep it isolated and it was clear within days ...

I obviously want to bring him in to treat.

First issue, from what I read, it said the correct treatment would be malachite green .. dont have any, nor does the local store. So need to order it online. That is going to take a few days to get.

Would you bring him in NOW, and just do nothing else til the meds can get here, or would you leave him outside til it gets here? I dont have a huge area available to put him in. It would be a 100 gallon, 60" x 12" kiddie pool (netted).. but I cant help but think if he was warmer, it would be better for him, even if his holding area is small ...

Also with bringing him in, at what temp would you maintain him at? Without a heater, the basement pond temp is holding just above 60 degrees, so guessing the kiddie pool would hold into that same area, or I can add a heater to bring the temp up...

IF all goes well with treating, how long can I keep him in a kiddie pool? It would be an obvious challenge acclimating him back to 40-45 degree water outside without adding more stress.

I found mixed info on saprolegnia ... one artical stated ALL ponds contain spores, and it is only an issue for weaken fish ... is that correct? Is it NONcontagious to healthy fish? IF noncontagious, I could move him after treatment to the 600 .. not a huge body of water, but a suface area of 6' x 11' is a far improvement over a kiddie pool ... it is also heated at 70 degrees for the plants, but I do have baby fish in there (big enough that there is no threat of being eaten - the buggers are growing pretty well), so dont want to expose them to anything ...

 

[Carolyn22]

I would not bring him in - otherwise you are into using water from your pond outside in the pond/tub you would have inside. Koi are supposed to be warmed up very slowly, otherwise it will really cause them a lot of stress and this poor guy really doesn't need any more stress.

If it were me - I would treat the entire pond with Proform C. Proform C does have the malachite in it and it is imperative to do your water exchanges with the Proform C. One question - do you have any salt in your pond? You cannot use Proform C with salt.

How big is your pond and would doing water exchanges at this point be difficult? I have running water outside, but I also have family up your way and I know there have been repeated snowstorms.

 

[capewind]

Thanks for the response ... but hubby (knows a LOT more than I do) told me to quit my worrying and my goromo will be fine (and is staying outside) ... he assured me that he knew there was an injury and yes, a fungal infection set in (said it was NORMAL to see once in awhile coming out of winter with extreme temp changes if a fish has been "compromised"), but as the water warmed, it would clear up on its own. It's only been two days since I noticed it was worse, but he is right, it is already looking better (today was gorgeous, no jacket needed). It still looks terrible TO ME, but it doesnt look like cotton anymore, just raised and yucky/glossy (sorry, bad description I know, and he said the "glossy" was GOOD). Oh, and he also told me not to waste my time wondering about "which" fungus it was, as it didnt matter one bit ... that PICTURES online will tell me nothing, and if I REALLY want to STRESS my fish, he will net him, and take a sample to put under the scope, but doesnt advise it. He said it looks worse than it is, and TRIED to explain to me WHEN to be concerned (anatomy lesson in which he totally lost me - related to layers of skin/tissue - I understood better when he used fins as an example) and said this was not a concern and would heal ...

 

[Carolyn22]

CW-

Have hubs keep eye on the fish and please keep us in the loop. If it is truly Saproglenia, it can be deadly. It sounds as though your husband has had experience with Saproglenia in the past, which is a good thing.

I know that years ago we had problems with Sap in our pond. Several fish were involved as well as ulcers on some of the fish. Thankfully we did not lose any fish and that has not happened again.

 

[capewind]

HE has a good deal of pond experience (also installs and maintains ponds), but aside from enjoying fish, I was never interested in learning beyond tossing food until recently.. was too busy being a MOM;-) I worry about every little thing ... His position in a nut shell is my goromo isnt in bad shape and should recover without intervention, and the only threat to the other fish is if they are not healthy and cant handle the normal stress of this season ... The general scope of the conversation is I was slow to notice and he had already been watching (but didnt tell me as I would freak LOL)

 

[Carolyn22]

I am not doubting DH's experience, but I do know what it is like to freak every time there is something wrong with the fish. I know it seemed like every year we had some type of problem with fish health at start up, until the last 3 or 4 years. Knock wood this year will be like the last couple of years.

Good luck to you -

 

[capewind]

He laughs at me most of the time, but I'm the type that brings every wild orphan or injured critter into the house, so if something is OFF with a fish, I am in "fix" mode LOL. Had another "injury" I think it was summer, where a fish ended up with a hole in her face ... I was thinking ulcer or a parasite was eating through ... he finally told me a bird had gotten her ...

 

[Dave 54]

Perhaps post a photo of the koi that way we can all give our opinion as to whats wromg with the koi.
I'm worried it may well tart to spead as the pond warm up

rgrds

Dave

 

[Carolyn22]

Capewind - I am the same way too. I would have more animals if I didn't have hubs. He kind of keeps me in check in that department.

Dave - my concern of the problem is that it will spread to other fish too.

 

[capewind]

Will try Dave. The last week has been crazy (businesswise) ... I have small windows of time when I am here during the day (laptop travels), but am now confused .... you are worrying it could get worse as it warms, he says better as it warms ... the only thing *I* know is the fuzzy cottony stuff looks gone .. the best I can describe it now is if you took a veggie peeler and ONLY took off the scales (not the "meat" underneath), it is swollen (the edges of healthy skin and irritated is clear) with clear slime over it ... brfore it looked like you put glue on something and dabbed cottonballs all over it (protruding maybe a half an inch) ... He is swimming around casually, doesnt look stressed, and is eating at the parrots feather ...

 

[capewind]

Carolyn... that was my fear too .. If it was up to me, he would already be inside, or I would bite the bullet and treat the whole pond (9000 gallons) with proform c like you suggested (would rather be safe than sorry), except I do not want to be doing water changes right now out there. I dont even know how many fish are out there anymore (lost count, plus some babies), but around 50 fish or so... not going to stress that many with water changes unless I have no choice. It is two connected ponds (one filter)... I didnt spend a lot of time looking at the comets and shubunkins in the upper pond, but of the 30ish fish in the main pond, got a good look at all but two, which are both super dark in color, so would think something would be easy to spot...

 

[Carolyn22]

Capewind -


It would be very difficult to bring the fish inside at this point. Koi have to be warmed very slowly over a period of time, otherwise it can be very harmful to the fish. The other thing that would have to be the same is the ph of the water. To go from one ph to another would also be harmful.

When we had the dreaded Sap, it was in March at start up. Truthfully, it was a pain with the water exchanges with the Proform C, but the stuff works. When we were having the problems with Sap, we also had problems with ulcer disease. Sap is usually a secondary infection.

Let us know.

 

[capewind]

I'm going to just sit back and wait/watch like hubby is telling me ... no chance of a picture today ... got cold again last night/this morning, so they are all back to the bottom again ... even have a tiny amount of ice at the little waterfall:-(

Hubby is against bringing him inside, but I was less concerned with bringing in, as the what to do with him afterwards ... I would have just filled a kiddie pool with pond water, and put him in that with an air stone and small filter... although I dont know how fast 100 gallons of water would warm to the basement temp (around 60-62).... My biggest worry was if he continued to act normal, how stressed would he get in 60" x 12" of water, and how long I could keep him there, and then what??? worry more about getting him back into lower temps outside again... more stress...

I agree with whatever the fungus is, is secondary ... hubby is adamit that there was a scrape ... know we had a fish scraped last year, but never found out which rock it was (and that fish never had a secondary issue and healed) ... all I can say at this point is I *am* a worry-wart, and will just keep watching ...

 

[Carolyn22]

Capewind

Scrapes need to be watched as well. Most of the time they heal nicely - sometimes they do not.

Keep us posted.

 

[capewind]

From what I can see from the window (directly above where they rest on the bottom), it doesnt look any worse ... I tried to take a picture, but they are facing the wrong way. It's a whooping 22 degrees outside right now, so doubt they;ll be moving much again today.