Possibly Animal attack causing disease?

[NOVA Merd]

Hello again.

We had a blue herring wipe out our koi last year and we also have stray cats in the area just to keep in mind while I explain our problem.

Over the last two weeks we had been seeing mutalated fish, we came to a thought they just came form the breeder like that. Being that we ordered over 100 fish four mutalated fish didn't seem out of the normal. Over the last four days we had four fish die but everyone else was healthy, so I thought.

Problem:
Today I came in a 6 fish were stuck to the pump and a few were floating. The water was cloudy from just two days before. We instantly saw more live mutalated fish, alot have cut fins (not fin rot I think) and about 6 had cloud eye. One had a completly imflammed white covered eye...it was protruding from it's head, poor guy. Alot had physical trama and like I said cloud eye.

Theory:
I asked around and did some investigating myself and so far we think that the fish, even with a net covering it, have been being harrased by some sort of animal for awhile now which caused them stress leading to weakened ammune systems therefore allowing diseases to more easily infect the fish. Along with those fish who were mutalated.

What I did:
So what I did was first seperate lively looking fish from "dying" looking fish. From there I further seperated the fish who looked to be in good shape and the fish with disease, mostly cloud eye. The healthy fish were moved to a 100gallon stock tank with a allready established bio filter from another pond and we acclimated them to there. They looked good by the end of the day. We treated the water from the 300 the koi came from like it was anthrax. Only the dying fish group got put into that water. The ok, diseased looking fish were put into a 75 gallon indoor tank with hangover filters. The dying bunch got put in a 20 gallon tank with a good bit of there own water with just a oxiginator. One died by the time I left. This whole crisis took about 3 hours and I'm exhausted.

So I'm sorry for this wall of text but I am curious to what you think about our theory and what we can do further to prevent fish loss. I care about the fish alot and this is a learning process for me everyday although it's tragic.

 

[Mmathis]

So sorry to hear about your losses, but sounds like you are starting out with a good plan of action by triaging and separating the fish. It would be interesting if you could set up a camera. Hope you figure it out.

 

[NOVA Merd]

It would be. I also heard someone say to put sand down around the pond and check the foot prints. Also interestingly enough I serviced a ladys pond this past weekend and as it cleared up, the day after all her fish were eaten by that bird...sooooooooo sort of suspiscious and maybe connected in a way.

 

[sissy]

Have you tested your water also and how old is your pond and how long before you added fish .What type of filter and what is your water, city or well .

 

[NOVA Merd]

I didn't test the water this time because I knew that it was probably very high in everything I wouldn't want. The pond was running for two weeks with feeders in it before koi were put in. The koi have been in there about two weeks. There were ALOT of koi in there though, about 35. We only sold 10 so about 25 koi were left in a 300 stock tank, not an ideal situation.

I know I will probably get crap for this but unless I'm doing a detailed science experiment I don't usually test the water. Maybe i'm lazy but i've been caring for fish for 5 years and I know how to set a tank/ pond up so it's cycled. I also know when about 10 fish have been dead in a pond for possibly two days the decomposing fish will throw off the balanced chemistry. We also have a group of feeders we use to ensure the tanks are okay for the koi. Feeders go into the tank regardless to either cycle or test water condition. We haven't have one feeder die.

This is just the way I do it. I also don't use any chemicals...besides prime and pond salt. That's just how i've been taught and what I beleive in doing. It also works.

 

[Dave 54]

As a 27 year long koi keeper please dont blame birds etc for your fishes mutilations please go look in a mirror, look to yourself and how you are treating these poor fish, a breeder would soon go out of business if he/she sold koi like this.
Please dont feel I'm getting at you but where did you learn to keep koi ?
Weve seen fins that have looked as though they hve been slashed through before popeye.
There is a saying in the koi world "Become a Keeper of water before becoming a keeper of koi", not testing the water is for one your main problem and its the number one sin to say you didn't test the water because you knew it was high in everything you dont want is paramount to saying sorry but I couldn't give a S**t .
If you wish to learn about koi then fine but do it by reading books, may I suggest you start by buying The Interpet Manuel of Koi Health ISBN 1824860992 Authors Keith Holmes and Tony Pitman then after you have read it practice what it preaches.
You'll fine a list of books both fish and koi books/health books once you've read that start working through the list.
You just cant treat creatures in this way science doesnt enter into it.
We keep cats they dont go near the koi plus we net against herons,you state tht last year you had an attack right ok where's your net to stop this
Are your fish in QT if so hy arent they being threated you just dont take it as said that they wont have problems please tell me that you have a filter on your tank because alott of what you are describing is to do with bad water fact not a theory
Weakend immune systems dont come about by being harrased again just because a fin doesnt look to have fin rot means it isnt it happens and I've seen it.
At least one thing you seperated your sick fish off but then didnt filtrate them , I'm sorry but QT systems should be filtrated 20 gallons wasnt enough we have a set up of between 350-550 imperial Gallons with a built in filter pump and U/V-C

As to your theory look to yourself for the answer "your the problem", if your going to keep any fish have the right system in place for both your pond and QT system , learn to keep water not fish once you've done that start by buying only one or two fish remember alway QT them for about one month.
Next when buying in fish make sure in future that all the fish are healthy do not be tempted to buy fish from a dealer if even one fish in that vat has problems.
Dead or dying fish should be removed even from a QT system , to leave 10 dead or dying is criminal of you decay my friennd takes more than one or two days it can take about a week just to start,
Please answer me this question how would you like it if I dug up your dead kith and kin then locked you in a sealed room with them then started putting in smoke for one the air woud be pretty pungent then with the smoke you would eventually end up like your kith and kin wouldnt you ???
You go on about these dead fish throwing off the chemistry (Huh what chemistry you've not even tested your water).
Feeders from what I've learned about this American method are full of everything and it reflects badly on the fish trade over in the US.
You wouldnt see anything like this in the UK because we have a very stringent Animal Welfare act in that the owners have a duty of care towards their pets be they Aquatic, Amphibious Reptile Feline, Canine etc to fail in this duty of care can see the RSPCA procecute the owner resulting in either a life time ban, heafty fine and or Imprisonment in the worst cases.
You end by saying the following :-
"This is just the way I do it. I also don't use any chemicals...besides prime and pond salt. That's just how i've been taught and what I beleive in doing. It also works".
Hey what the hell hve I just been on about ???
S**t thats right all your dead and dying fish may I ask the age of your oldest koi ???
You can ask the aged of our two oldest koi if you wish, the answer we'll give you is 27 this year.
You can ask how many koi we have lost in the last 27 years, the answer we'll give you is 8 and I feel thats too many .
You can ask how do you get koi 27 years old , the answer we'll give you is by reading about our subject,
Next answer proper QT fasilities and correct QT periods allowing for anything to come to the gfore so that it can be treated.
Next answer regular water tests , regular water changes tank then pond, you have to do maintenance on a regular basis.
Next answer food nothing but the best for our boys and girls both Pelleted and alternate foods.
Next answer treatments including anethatizing fish minor operations cleaning out wounds etc, further the correct treatments for the correct ailments including chemicals, salt only used in short term baths.
Weve even created a number of first aid kits for our koi including everying we need to treat them both surgically and normally.
We have a Microscope with ocular giving us from x40-x1024 for recognition of parasites.
We have a chemical treatment kit ( all chemicals opened are removed after 6 months and new added).
We have a Tetra Pond Test kit covering Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate Ph, Gh, Kh, plus a DOC meter and Ph meter .
Can you see a pattern forming yet ???
I certainly hope so because if you cant try keeping something other than fish instead yourself perhaps........

rgrds

Dave

Some Photo's for you including our oldest koi bottom of page

 

[NOVA Merd]

One thing you must understand is that I am ONE person taking care of over 100 fish. I use the materials that are at hand on a school budget. We have stock tanks, pumps, biofilters, test kits, food, a whole bunch of materials. Just to maintain what we have takes me hours every week along with the class I am supposed to be in. I am dedicated to these fish. It's harder over the internet to convey what kind of experience I have. I do all I can every day to care for these fish. I want to go into aquafarming and aquaponics in the near future and this is a learning experiment to me. Everything I do is done with what I know and what I read and experience from a few teachers who also keep koi.

So before blasting me again. Just remember before this year all I took care of were two fish I personally own. I hit the ground running as far as keeping large quantities of fish go. When I walked into school there were leftover fish from last year. I did I could for them. Then we got 50 koi. My first experience with them. I learned alot with them and lost a good bit. Then we got somewhere around 150 fish most were ment to be sold. We only sold about 20 this year. Sort of scarry and challenging that I have to think of something quick to care for that many growing fish in tanks that are way too small by MYSELF. My interest in sustainable aquaculture began this year and although I'm off to a tough start it's a begining. I'm a 17 year old tech student learning and caring by myself. I along with my teachers thing i'm doing a great job for whats ahead of me.

I don't enjoy forum for the fact I feel I need to defend my knowledge. I'm just going to stick to what I know and keep learning and reading. My oldest fish is nearly six by the way. His name is Oscar.

 

[sissy]

All of my fish are 9 years old and I knew nothing when I started and never even had a fish tank in my life .I have only lost one fish and that was a shubbie that jumped during breeding .I did not put the net on ,my fault .I test my water when I see a change but I only have 13 fish in my pond and I run 2 filters ,nothing fancy just lava rock and plants and crushed oyster shells and activated charcoal .I also use PDZ horse stall refresher which is zeolite .I have learned on my own .

 

[capewind]

One thing you must understand is that I am ONE person taking care of over 100 fish. I use the materials that are at hand on a school budget.

And your point is what? We have over 200 Koi, and about 75 comets and shubunkins, and I am willing to bet most schools have a greater budger then I do. Per testing, my water quality is right where it should be, and nothing dead, dying or stuck to our filters either ... Care for all, is under an hour per week, I agree, it must be tough to take care of over a hundred fish all by yourself!

So before blasting me again.

Blasting you??? Dave is trying to EDUCATE YOU.

I don't enjoy forum for the fact I feel I need to defend my knowledge. I'm just going to stick to what I know and keep learning and reading. My oldest fish is nearly six by the way. His name is Oscar.

The problem is you THINK you have a fair amount of knowledge, and are ignorant at best. You CAN keep tooting your own horn, and keep watching your poor charges DIE if you so chose, OR you can actually LISTEN to what folks with TRUE experience are TRYING to TEACH you.

 

[Dave 54]

One thing you must understand is that I am ONE person taking care of over 100 fish. I use the materials that are at hand on a school budget. We have stock tanks, pumps, biofilters, test kits, food, a whole bunch of materials. Just to maintain what we have takes me hours every week along with the class I am supposed to be in. I am dedicated to these fish. It's harder over the internet to convey what kind of experience I have. I do all I can every day to care for these fish. I want to go into aquafarming and aquaponics in the near future and this is a learning experiment to me. Everything I do is done with what I know and what I read and experience from a few teachers who also keep koi.

So before blasting me again. Just remember before this year all I took care of were two fish I personally own. I hit the ground running as far as keeping large quantities of fish go. When I walked into school there were leftover fish from last year. I did I could for them. Then we got 50 koi. My first experience with them. I learned alot with them and lost a good bit. Then we got somewhere around 150 fish most were ment to be sold. We only sold about 20 this year. Sort of scarry and challenging that I have to think of something quick to care for that many growing fish in tanks that are way too small by MYSELF. My interest in sustainable aquaculture began this year and although I'm off to a tough start it's a begining. I'm a 17 year old tech student learning and caring by myself. I along with my teachers thing i'm doing a great job for whats ahead of me.

I don't enjoy forum for the fact I feel I need to defend my knowledge. I'm just going to stick to what I know and keep learning and reading. My oldest fish is nearly six by the way. His name is Oscar.

Why would I blast you, quite clearly you need help defending knowledge , that is your right but first make sure you know what your talking about.
Iv'e been with my partner in this hobby for 27 years this year, with 22 of those years where indoors.
Our first ever christmas outside saw temparature's of -10.c well outside our comfort zone but the knowledge held true and the koi survived what must have been quite a shock to their systems.
The point is though we knew what we were doing, but from what you've said you dont understand even the basics of koi keeping .
You have far to many koi what is you say one person against 100 koi this you freely admit takes you hours everyweek if this is the case then surely you need help with what your doing.
Personally it says your doing far to much.and as such you must talk with your teachers and have them take over from you.
You say your interest is sustainable aquaculture but you can neither maintain or make sustainable the number of koi you already have at present thats the whole point of things isnt it ....?
Over the years we have bought many koi in at 3" grown them on to 22" and sold them on for either books, food., equipment and
new 3" koi to buy and grow on again that is a sustainable hobby my young friend but first you need the basics to do things which you havent got.......
Its not about numbers its how you raise them we arent trying to make a fool of you, you did that yourself .
What we will say though is there are a number of very learned people on this site alongside ourselves stick around some and take on board whats being said that way you will learn.


rgrd


Dave

 

[MikeKoi4Life77]

A lot of us learn through mistakes. I started out with a small pond, made every mistake imaginable. Then I started researching through forums like this one, and ended up filling in that little pond and moving on to a much larger one. Filtration and maintaining a balanced ecosystem is key to your fish surviving and you having to do much less matainance. Plants are the best way to filter and maintain a balance in the pond, you are on the right track with the aquaponics and its a lot easier to do than you might think, oh and inexpensive. I have plants in and out of the pond as well as gravel medium to filter out my water, my pond is over 3' deep and you can see straight to the bottom. The only thing I have to do is clean the filter pad and net in the skimmer box once a week. I have a pad in my waterfall box with a bag of lava rock and plants growing out the back to desguise it even more, virtually invisable, I just wish my waterfall was more dramatic. I plan on installing a second pond and connecting them. I will once again be scouring this forum for advice on how best to seam the two ponds together, but thats still a few months away. This is a fun hobby and there is no way it should be that much work, so do your research, take the good advice, and you too will be having just as much fun as all of us. Good luck, its easier than you think.

 

[Dave 54]

Nova where have you got to m'mmm I feel the truth hurts somewhat doesnt it.
Fish keeping isnt rocket sience its common sense come back to the forum and allow people such as Larkin Sissy, Waterbug, Charles or myself to help you .
Listen to what we say and learn, who knows in 20 years or so time you may hanx to us be a brilliant fish keeper.
Hide your head in the sand and by July your hundered fish will be down to around 5 or so of the hardiest fish you have, keep doing it and by August Septemper Time you'll have a nice pond devoid of all life .
We are hear to help but first a person must realize he needs help, I've come across quite a few people such as yourself who think they are the bees knees when it comes to fish keeping but that comes with experiiance and years of study reading all you can on your chosen subject.
The last person to do this to me was a friend I'd not seen in years his Dad had died leaving him a pond, by the time we'd become involved the pond was well past its stocking level of 15 fish he had more than 50 fish in the pond and as much as people tried he knew better (they do after being in the hobby a year)lol,
In the end what we are trying to tell you happened all his fish died, was it his fault no he blamed it on anyone but himself even our medical officer koi was wrong.....
The last I heard of this idiot he was awaiting trial for smuggling crack cocaine from Liverpool to Plymouth ( and you think you know a person eh) !!!!.....
Well that'll be the last time we'll see him for a while probably in 11-15 years he'll surface again but by that time his Mother will have passed away and being in social housing he wont have a pond to come back to, if he has the nerve to come back that is.
So we are saying please just take in what your being told then you'll have a hobby that'll last a lifetime not a few months


rgrds


Dave

 

[Nepen]

Just want to chim in just a little about this.

I gathered that Nova is housing all the fish for sale and a few are his own fish. I just want to point out that, eventhough you are trying to sell those fish and only be planning on having the fish for the short periods, that short period with poor water condition and kill fish and make the fish very weak. You will be making the fish that you are trying to sell sick and as the result, selling the sick fish to the customers. May be this is the reason you can only sell 20 out of 100 you ordered?

I'm hoping you will have a bigger tank for the fish, even for the short period of time you planned on housing the fish, or at least have large/effective filters to make the water condition suitable for the fish to live in. Also order small amount to match the capacity that you have, then start expanding once you have the right equipment. Right now you dont have a good business model and also fish is a living creature and can get sick, you really need to pay attention to the water quality (I'm also guilty of this too!!). I'm also a newbie and learning.

I dont have much to tell you how to do anything, I just started the pond myself, but after all I learn from here, and all the illness poor water quality can cause to the fish, I wouldnt want to buy my fish from a seller who dont test the water they keep the fish in...
-A

 

[HTH]

Dave was right on target. Rather then feel you are under attack take a breath and learn from what he has to say. Attacking the people trying to help you is not going to do anyone any good.