Pump for 2 ponds

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Hi, my last question was answered so quickly that I thought I'd put out another question I know I will shortly come across.

I have built one pond. I am looking to add another pond which the two are connected by a small stream. The second one is on a natural higher point and will feed in.

My query is in what pump size I would need. When I read it says the pump should be determined by the volume of water. In my case, is this the volume of one pond, or both? I can look at adding a pic if that's needed ?

Thanks.
 

sissy

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Pumps go by head height .The length the water has to travel from the pump to the waterfall in your case other pond .I get confused as the same size gph pump and different brands can all say different head heights .I always use 2 pumps ..Remember your water will have to travel from your lower pond all the way up to your upper pond and you will want the stream to be deep enough to also help aerate the water and clean the water .Plus you don't want a trickle of water so length matters
 
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I was actually planning to have a water feature at the top of the taller pond.. Waterfall like.. Which is produced from the cycle of water from the lower pond, using the waterfall to aerate .

Would this work to aerate?
 

sissy

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It will to some point and the deeper it is the more important aeration is .Not sure how big or deep you are going and how much water your ponds will hold .Best thing I did was e -mailed pics and stats webbs water gardens and then called them and they told me what I needed .I think the 960 gph pump will be good for now but I may change it out to a 1500 gph as I miscalculated the length of the hose
 

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. When I read it says the pump should be determined by the volume of water. In my case, is this the volume of one pond, or both?

If your ponds are connected, which it sounds like they are, I would count all the water in both of them because its all being circulated between them.
 

sissy

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He has not built the second pond yet so volume at this point is up in the air ,if this is what i am understanding .The length of a stream if built will also add to it all
 
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Look for a pump that flows at least 150% of both ponds volume per hour minimum.

I'm curious as to how you came up with 150%. I've seen most pump manufacturers recommend at least 50% of the volume circulating per hour minimum. I've noticed that most here recommend 100% of the pond volume per hour as a minimum. And now I see that you recommend 150%. I don't pretend to know enough on this subject to dispute this number, or any of them, but in my quest for knowledge in ponding, I'd like to hear how you came up with that number. Thanks.
 
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I think turning the two ponds over once per hour will be enough. I don't know if you understand what "head" is, but basically, you have to push the water up hill to get it from the lower pond to the upper pond. The vertical distance up is "head". Having to push the water uphill will cause the pumps flow to be reduced. So say you have a 1000 gallon pond. I suggest a 1500 gph pump because I would expect your pumping loss to be about 500 gph due to "head". Please know that my 150% was a somewhat random, but still educated estimate. And by all means, feel free to go more than 150%.
 
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As was already said it's all one pond, just multiple pools. So total volume.

However, beware of 100,150,200,500% numbers. Just because something is repeated a million times on the web doesn't actually make it valid. These are just pulled out of thin air and have no basis whatsoever in reality.

In San Jose CA I ran a 5000 gal multi-pool pond with a 900 GPH pump. So that's 18% turn over per hour. Go into any pond forum and say that and you will get an ear full. But I ran that pond for many years without a problem. That doesn't mean I think 18% is some kind of minimum...there were times when that pump was off for weeks and the fish were fine. Had a gunite swimming pool I kept goldfish in for several years. 35,000 gal and no pump at all and that pond had a ton (I think literally) of the nastiest muck I've ever seen (and I cleaned ponds for a time). Fish were fine.

On the other hand I've had small ponds where I was raising a bunch of fry and I needed 1000% turn over. If the pump was off for more than 20-30 minutes I could lose all the fish. Doesn't mean every pond needs 1000% turn over.

Unless you have some specific goal, like you want to grow monster big Koi, or a huge amount of fish, the chances are no pump is needed. Yeah, there can be certain periods, like algae die offs, when gas exchange (what you call aeration) is important. But you're right back in the same boat, how much is enough? A static percentage just makes no sense other than to lure you into a false sense of security.

I think for most normal type backyard water gardens you're way better off sizing the pump to your budget and water features you want (sound, looks). As far as water quality goes the pump size is way down the list. Other things will have a much larger impact.

Next myth...waterfalls provide great gas exchange (aeration). We see that white water, the bubbles, and think it's the poster child of goodness. The truth is gas exchange happens at the surface of water so virtually all of it happens at that flat calm surface across the entire pond. Water can only hold so much O2 so yeah the water in the falls is maxed out, but so is the top 1" of the entire pond. Plus most of the falls water stays near the surface so no great gas exchange benefit since that water is already maxed out.

As you go deeper the O2 level drops. So if you want improved gas exchange the trick is to move that deeper water up to the surface where gas exchange can happen. If you used the same amount of flow going to the falls to instead use it rotate the entire pond you would get many times better gas exchange (and O2 levels) in the entire pond. So this myth about waterfalls really hurts a lot of ponds. Yet it persists.

You can have your cake and eat it too. The main problem with waterfalls and gas exchange is the water plunging into the pond doesn't penetrate very well. It hits the surface and basically spreads out. Most of the flow doesn't mix the bottom water very well. That can be easily changed. You can add a catch basin under the falls to make sure all water goes to the bottom and rotates the entire pond. Win - win. Easy and cheap to build too.

CatchBasin.jpg

Looks like this when done:
koibasin.jpg


You can do the exact same thing again in the lower pond where the stream enters that pool. For the cost of pumping water once you get a pretty waterfall and good gas change in 2 pools, or as many pools as you like.

The basin has other benefits like never having soap foam on the surface of your pond, better fish viewing, extra bio filtering, and other good stuff.

That type of water movement might give you 10 times better exchange than just a falls. That's why these % rules make no sense. The design of the pond, fish load, and other factors matter way more. Made up numbers that only sound good, matter not so much.
 
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Waterbug, do you understand that if you suck the supposedly less oxygenated water off the bottom and run it up and down the waterfall it will return to the pond saturated with oxygen? With 100% per hour turnover the oxygen level will remain fine unless the pond is massively overstocked.
 

sissy

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That is one of the reason I use my ball valve method to keep water moving on the surface .No bottom drain no UV just air and water movement all over the pond .2 filters and air lines in both of them and it seems to work for me .I can still see the bottom of my pond and this is a new rebuild .I saved as much of my old pond water as I could but it was not much since the pond was leaking bad .I don't want a UV as there seems to be so much controversy about them .Do they work, do they not work, do they kill off more than they should ,what size pump ,how many watts ,where to install them and how long to run them and how long the bulb lasts .Just a big head ache to me just like a bottom drain ,will it leak and did I install it right .I don't want that risk liners are not cheap and not easy to replace .My opinion and maybe not right ,but this has worked for me for years now .So why fix what works .You just need to find what works and stay with it and not sway from it .Just like my lava rock ,it works.Maybe mine is not what people like but it is what I find i like .May not be right for every one is what I am trying to say .May not be the best idea either
 

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Hey all!

Thanks for all the information. Think I'm going to have to read through all again when I get back from work as there's a lot of information to take in.

Ultimately I won't be having fish. It's purely a wildlife pond, hoping for plants, frogs, butterfly's and dragonflys etc.

I have deep marginal oxygenating plants, a stream link, and small waterfall at the beginning taking the water from the lower pond so hopefully this will do enough to add the oxygen in. ( or will once completed.)

I have attached a photo which might help with advising. It was the pond in its current state this morning, as you can see there not hugely deep.

Thanks for all the guidance so far.
 

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