Red-eared sliders and American bullfrogs (LONG THREAD)

[Wayfarin]

Hello folks!

I have some questions about people's experience with red-eared sliders and American bullfrogs.
I'm hoping that many of the users of this forum will be able to give their input since both of these species are quite common in backyard ponds worldwide.

We currently own a female red-eared slider named Teresa or "Terry" who's a little over 12 years old. We've had her for that long, and we suspect she could live many more years.

She's a cherished pet that we had opportunities to give up on multiple times, we but never did. (This species is very commonly dumped in waterways.)
However, she's currently living in an undersized indoor tub, and we had thought about moving her to a much larger outdoor enclosure.

The drive to the nearest Petco is longer than an hour, but we still manage to go almost monthly to pick up pet supplies, including feeder minnows.
We noticed many mosquitofish swimming in a tank of feeder goldfish. After talking with one of the workers, she said that they sometimes get unexpected animals in with the shipments of feeder, including bullfrog tadpoles. After looking this up, I have discovered that bullfrog tadpoles are often brought to Petco and PetSmart stores accidentally (although I was already aware of the fact).

I would love to adopt and raise a tadpole, but like red-eared sliders, bullfrogs get much harder to care for when they grow older and larger and as a result are often similarly dumped in waterways. Although they are native here, I would not want to release a bullfrog to prevent the spread of the chytrid fungus.

However, it had occurred to me that the pond that we had thought about moving "Terry" into would be an ideal location to relocate the frog when it matures.
It would have to be an enclosed pond with a net covering it to keep raccoons out. This would also prevent the frog from escaping.

However, there is another predator that I had considered that might be inside the enclosure. Teresa.

Bullfrogs grow very large when mature, and Teresa is only 8 inches in shell length, but I have learned not to underestimate the red-eared slider.
However, I imagine that it would be easier to prevent a red-eared slider from turning on the other residents in a large pond, compared to a small aquarium.
Most notably, I'd imagine that as long as the frog has a place to retreat to during the day, it could come out at night without having to worry about Teresa when she sleeps. I picture in my mind some kind of land area with another, smaller pool or puddle within it for the frog to rest in.

Even if it does work, I think I would avoid naming the frog just in case Teresa decides that it's too delicious to share the pond with.
If not, then I would have to avoid making a foolish decision in taking in a tadpole that I could not care for as an adult.

Does anyone have any suggestions concerning this idea? Any input, especially from experience, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

 

[Stephen Noble]

In short, are you asking if Teresa will eat a tadpole? Probably, unless you have a really large pond with lots of plants, logs for it to hide. Will Teresa eat a grown frog? Perhaps, but probably not if the pond is large enough. Frogs and tadpoles will not have a chance if you put them with Teresa in say, a 200-gallon pond. There a many frogs living in my garden pond and they spend a good part of the day on land wandering around the flowers and grounds. A Red Ear Slider (RES) is very unpredictable, and my advice is don't become attached to anything you put in with the turtle. You mentioned Terry is 12-years old. Anyone who keeps an RES for 12-years indoors is doing something right. Congratulations, she sounds like a happy turtle! One of our RES lived for 34-years indoors so Terry has many more happy years ahead. Do you really need to move her outdoors?

 

[Lisak1]

I'm with @Stephen Noble - anything you move outdoors is at risk for wandering away or becoming a snack for a roaming predator. I'd keep the turtles indoors.

As for bullfrogs - there is NO WAY you will keep a bullfrog confined. They may hang around because they want to, but when they're ready to go, they go. And don't expect to see any smaller frogs or even small birds around your pond if you're harboring a full grown bullfrog.

 

[Jhn]

Agree, with @Lisak1 and @Stephen Noble, wildlife will just appear at your pond without any aid, especially all native species of frogs.

 

[Wayfarin]

In short, are you asking if Teresa will eat a tadpole? Probably, unless you have a really large pond with lots of plants, logs for it to hide. Will Teresa eat a grown frog? Perhaps, but probably not if the pond is large enough. Frogs and tadpoles will not have a chance if you put them with Teresa in say, a 200-gallon pond. There a many frogs living in my garden pond and they spend a good part of the day on land wandering around the flowers and grounds. A Red Ear Slider (RES) is very unpredictable, and my advice is don't become attached to anything you put in with the turtle. You mentioned Terry is 12-years old. Anyone who keeps an RES for 12-years indoors is doing something right. Congratulations, she sounds like a happy turtle! One of our RES lived for 34-years indoors so Terry has many more happy years ahead. Do you really need to move her outdoors?

I'm not asking if Teresa would eat a tadpole. I'm pretty sure she would eventually.
The only way a tadpole could survive in a pond with Terry would be if the pond was way larger than we could provide, or possibly if we provided enough tadpoles for 1 out out 10 to survive.

My question relates to American bullfrogs in particular because they are large enough to possibly be ignored.
If Teresa does not ignore it, on the other hand, a bullfrog's only real defense would be to retreat, since is has no real defensive "arsenal" except possibly for a very mild poison that does not seem to have any affect on turtles.

I imagine that bullfrogs and other frogs could possibly survive in a pond with a turtle by providing them with a small alternate "pool" within the land area of the pond.
I got the idea from this video. As you can see in the beginning, the bullfrog has a "mini pond" that it can rest in without disturbance from the turtle. The turtle is naturally uninterested in such a small body of water.

We really think that we should move her outdoors as the largest tank she's ever lived in was 30 gallons. And her filter isn't even impressive. I know that's surprising considering how long she's been living. She's currently healthy at the moment, as well.
I don't think that it would be easy to provide her with enough space indoors, and buying even a 100-gallon aquarium with a filtration system to keep up with it would cost just as much if not more than a 900-gallon pond with a solar aerator.

Not to mention the benefits of exposing her to natural sunlight instead of a bulb that needs to be changed every so often.

 

[Wayfarin]

I'm with @Stephen Noble - anything you move outdoors is at risk for wandering away or becoming a snack for a roaming predator. I'd keep the turtles indoors.

As for bullfrogs - there is NO WAY you will keep a bullfrog confined. They may hang around because they want to, but when they're ready to go, they go. And don't expect to see any smaller frogs or even small birds around your pond if you're harboring a full grown bullfrog.

Even a pond with four walls surrounding it and a net covering it? Because that's what I'd planned to keep her in.
I can't imagine that an almost 6-inch bullfrog would be able to escape a setup like this, either.

The security of the pond is also intended to keep the birds and frogs out. A spring peeper or tree frog might be able to climb up the wall, wander in through the net covering and get eaten, but most other frogs and birds would have a hard time entering the enclosure.
Within the enclosure, I'm only concerned about the bullfrog being attacked by the red-eared slider.
Besides, the red-eared slider would scare smaller frogs away from the pond, anyway.

 

[Wayfarin]

Agree, with @Lisak1 and @Stephen Noble, wildlife will just appear at your pond without any aid, especially all native species of frogs.

Not this pond. It's planned to be surrounded by walls and covered by a net to keep out raccoons.
Tree frogs could enter, but I doubt that most frogs would be able to climb the walls.
Teresa would also devour any frog smaller than a bullfrog.

Bullfrogs are not invasive where we live. Sliders are not native, but she would be well confined.
I also doubt that she would survive in the wild.

 

[Jhn]

Not this pond. It's planned to be surrounded by walls and covered by a net to keep out raccoons.
Tree frogs could enter, but I doubt that most frogs would be able to climb the walls.
Teresa would also devour any frog smaller than a bullfrog.

Bullfrogs are not invasive where we live. Sliders are not native, but she would be well confined.
I also doubt that she would survive in the wild.

How tall are your walls going to be? Frogs can jump very high. I have raised pools/ponds plumbed into my juvenile turtle pond that are around 3’ tall and get frogs in them.

900 gallons for a pond may be large enough for your turtle to give up trying to catch other inhabitants. The terrapins I keep are carnivorous and outside of snails they leave everything else alone, granted they are in a pond that is close 20k. The young ones that were in the 1800 gallon juvenile turtle pond also left everything alone in there as well.

 

[Wayfarin]

How tall are your walls going to be? Frogs can jump very high. I have raised pools/ponds plumbed into my juvenile turtle pond that are around 3’ tall and get frogs in them.

900 gallons for a pond may be large enough for your turtle to give up trying to catch other inhabitants. The terrapins I keep are carnivorous and outside of snails they leave everything else alone, granted they are in a pond that is close 20k. The young ones that were in the 1800 gallon juvenile turtle pond also left everything alone in there as well.

Wow, the frogs jump 3 feet high just to enter the pond? I knew they could jump that high but for some reason I didn't think they would be that persistent.

Yeah, it's supposed to hold 900 gallons, but it's probably not going to be larger than 10-12' long x 5-6' wide x 3' deep.
As I've mentioned, it's meant to have a net covering it, so frogs would only be able to jump in if the net has gaps that are wide enough for the frogs to slip through. The net would also prevent the American bullfrog, if we add it, from jumping out and terrorizing our wild frogs.

This may sound strange, but I consider it merciful to add the bullfrog, since if it doesn't consume the frogs that invade the pond, Teresa will, and turtles shred their prey remorselessly. (She may spare the bullfrog only because it's strong enough to escape her grasp.)

Furthermore, the bullfrog preying on the smaller frogs would prevent the frogs from going back and forth between ponds, since that's how amphibian diseases are known to spread.

 

[Lisak1]

Well. I guess if you're intent on your plan, then go for it. But a net won't stop a frog from TRYING to get in or out... but it may effectively TRAP it in the net.

You're building an outdoor pond - thinking you can control nature (ie., keeping frogs from moving from one pond to another) is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. And yes - even small frogs will jump three feet high. In, out, up, down - they don't care. They leap.

Bullfrogs are merciless hunters - they will catch birds from midair and drown them so they can swallow them. If they realize the bird they caught was too big to swallow, they just spit it out and try another one. But that's not terrorizing... that's just living their life as nature intended.

 

[Wayfarin]

Well. I guess if you're intent on your plan, then go for it. But a net won't stop a frog from TRYING to get in or out... but it may effectively TRAP it in the net.

You're building an outdoor pond - thinking you can control nature (ie., keeping frogs from moving from one pond to another) is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. And yes - even small frogs will jump three feet high. In, out, up, down - they don't care. They leap.

Bullfrogs are merciless hunters - they will catch birds from midair and drown them so they can swallow them. If they realize the bird they caught was too big to swallow, they just spit it out and try another one. But that's not terrorizing... that's just living their life as nature intended.

I know that the net won't stop the bullfrog from trying to escape, but it should keep it contained.
I don't mind if small frogs occasionally invade the pond, but I doubt that they'd survive both Teresa and a bullfrog.
When I said "terrorizing" I meant decimating. Bullfrogs can cause serious amphibian population declines in a given area when loose.

 

[Lisak1]

I'll just finish with this - part of the joy to me of a garden pond is to watch nature as it unfolds. We add fish to our ponds for obvious reasons, but seeing a wild creature choose to live in my pond, do what it does naturally, move on when it's ready - all of that is way more satisfying, interesting, compelling... you name it - than creating what is essentially an outdoor aquarium where certain creatures have to be kept in and others have to be kept out. But if that's your dream pond, more power to you.

Bullfrogs are part of the natural cycle of life. They eat what they can; they're eaten when a predator has an opportunity. In 12 years of ponding we've watched the cycle - dozens of small frogs show up in spring, bullfrog shows up, small frogs disappear (eaten? moved on? both?), no more small frogs, bullfrog moves on, dozens of small frogs return to pond. It's a constant ebb and flow - the way nature intends. Everybody eats; everybody gets eaten. Bullfrog is getting a bum rap in your telling of the story.

Will your net contain a bullfrog when nature is telling it to move on? Hard to say. My concern would be it gets caught up in the net and dies in the escape attempt. Bullfrogs are indeed common in garden ponds as you stated in your opening post - however, in my experience, it is not common for them to stay in one place for very long. Whatever drives them to move - the urge to mate, find a better food source, prepare for changing seasons - will still exist in your captive frog.

 

[rubyduby]

I'll just finish with this - part of the joy to me of a garden pond is to watch nature as it unfolds. We add fish to our ponds for obvious reasons, but seeing a wild creature choose to live in my pond, do what it does naturally, move on when it's ready - all of that is way more satisfying, interesting, compelling... you name it - than creating what is essentially an outdoor aquarium where certain creatures have to be kept in and others have to be kept out. But if that's your dream pond, more power to you.

Bullfrogs are part of the natural cycle of life. They eat what they can; they're eaten when a predator has an opportunity. In 12 years of ponding we've watched the cycle - dozens of small frogs show up in spring, bullfrog shows up, small frogs disappear (eaten? moved on? both?), no more small frogs, bullfrog moves on, dozens of small frogs return to pond. It's a constant ebb and flow - the way nature intends. Everybody eats; everybody gets eaten. Bullfrog is getting a bum rap in your telling of the story.

Will your net contain a bullfrog when nature is telling it to move on? Hard to say. My concern would be it gets caught up in the net and dies in the escape attempt. Bullfrogs are indeed common in garden ponds as you stated in your opening post - however, in my experience, it is not common for them to stay in one place for very long. Whatever drives them to move - the urge to mate, find a better food source, prepare for changing seasons - will still exist in your captive frog.

I had a yellow bellied slider in my 900 gallon pond for about 6 months when he decided to leave...It was sad because I really liked interacting with him but nature had a different plan...I am glad that he was able to follow his instincts, even if it shortened his life.

 

[Wayfarin]

I'll just finish with this - part of the joy to me of a garden pond is to watch nature as it unfolds. We add fish to our ponds for obvious reasons, but seeing a wild creature choose to live in my pond, do what it does naturally, move on when it's ready - all of that is way more satisfying, interesting, compelling... you name it - than creating what is essentially an outdoor aquarium where certain creatures have to be kept in and others have to be kept out. But if that's your dream pond, more power to you.

Bullfrogs are part of the natural cycle of life. They eat what they can; they're eaten when a predator has an opportunity. In 12 years of ponding we've watched the cycle - dozens of small frogs show up in spring, bullfrog shows up, small frogs disappear (eaten? moved on? both?), no more small frogs, bullfrog moves on, dozens of small frogs return to pond. It's a constant ebb and flow - the way nature intends. Everybody eats; everybody gets eaten. Bullfrog is getting a bum rap in your telling of the story.

Will your net contain a bullfrog when nature is telling it to move on? Hard to say. My concern would be it gets caught up in the net and dies in the escape attempt. Bullfrogs are indeed common in garden ponds as you stated in your opening post - however, in my experience, it is not common for them to stay in one place for very long. Whatever drives them to move - the urge to mate, find a better food source, prepare for changing seasons - will still exist in your captive frog.

(You don't have to feel like you need to leave me alone. I'm open to constructive criticism if I need it.)

I agree wholeheartedly. There's something really special about promoting wildlife habitat in your own yard.
I'm a genuine wildlife enthusiast and would love to build a pond just to invite the birds and native wildlife that wander through our yard, searching for food, water, and shelter. One time, we even had a vagrant painted turtle wander into our town

However, I'm protective of our turtle and I don't want to consider her just a "part of nature" in the "eat or be eaten" cycle.
It's also illegal to release captive-bred reptiles and amphibians in New Hampshire, even native ones, and red-eared sliders are invasive in our state. Therefore, it's required by law that I confine the red-eared slider and the bullfrog.

I know I make bullfrogs look bad, but they are truly voracious predators. If you think I give them a "bum" reputation, then ask someone in a country where bullfrogs are invasive how much they like them (it's usually not very much).

But obviously, I don't hate bullfrogs. The whole point of this thread is advice on how I can make one comfortable and protect it from our turtle. I obviously wouldn't even want to raise one if I thought that they were terrible. They are terrible only from the perspective of a smaller amphibian.

 

[Wayfarin]

I had a yellow bellied slider in my 900 gallon pond for about 6 months when he decided to leave...It was sad because I really liked interacting with him but nature had a different plan...I am glad that he was able to follow his instincts, even if it shortened his life.

In New Hampshire, which is our state, it's actually illegal to release reptiles and amphibians into waterways, and it is required to confine all captive-bred individuals, which means that I would have to confine our red-eared slider as best as I can in order to abide by the law.
If she escaped from our pond, we could be guilty of breaking the law. I also doubt that Teresa would survive our harsh winters.