Relining and Rebuilding a huge pond

[pondvideoaddict]

Hi Everyone!

I bought a property in Southern California with an amazing pond and within 3 months, the water was gone and I realized the liner had disintegrated and the previous owners had filled it only to sell the house. Since then, I've learned how expensive and time consuming it is to build a pond. I've watched hours upon hours of videos and consulted with a few awesome pond people but of course, I still have questions and need advice so here I am. Attached you will find my design and I'll upload pictures of the rebuild along the way. The pond is about 105 feet x 65 feet and we are going to go to about 5 feet deep (It's 80 feet between the bridge and the gazebo). We want it to be a swimming pond (but not a deal breaker if it turns out to not be swimmable) and have some fish in it. We are going to bulid the pond around the gazebo - we are not going to have the water go under it so you have the effect that the gazebo is on the water but it is not.... I calculated the volume to be about 200,000 gallons of water. The bog is about 30 by 35 feet. I'm going to use 40 mil RPE liner and an overlayment - BTL has told me that I don't really need to do an underlayment because I am going to fill the current almost dried out sludge with a little class 2 base and then a lot of clean fill dirt and then build the shelves out of dg. Question: It was recommended that I buy 3 Jandy 2.7 HP e pump with 2 aux relays? Any better (I.e. cheaper) options for pumps or do I only need 2? I have a pump for my insanely long (120 feet) waterfall) that works but I will not be running the waterfall all the time so this is really for the jets and intake bay. I'm also going to buy 2 pro 60 aerators. For the bog I was going to buy a submersible pump that pumps 8000 gph. Despite how many videos I have watched - I still don't understand how you go about the world of pond pumps. Another question for sizing my liner - how much overage would you go? I think I asked for a quote for 130 feet by 90 because I'm scared that I measured wrong and I figure I could use the extra to line the long narrow waterfall. I'm assuming I should get a separate liner for the bog and just overlap or seam it, yes? Any advice on anything I've mentioned will be highly appreciated.

 

[addy1]

WOW!

@GBBUDD , @combatwombat. Chime in ! My pond is too small and basic ie one pump, to answer his questions.

 

[j.w]

OOH LA LA that is humongous and I will be enjoying watching this build! We have people here w/large ponds that can help you.
When they see the size of yours tho, I think they will be drooling

 

[GBBUDD]

THATS A POND ALRIGHT. VERY JEALOUS. WELCOME
The first thing that's jumping out at me is you have two areas that will have to rely on circulation pumps to move the water . 2/3rds of your pond design is outside the flow from the bog. The water that is coming out of the bog is not being given the chance to flow around the pond. The first area that, that water is reaches is the intake ba. You'll have to provide the energy/ electric to push the water out of the beach area , the center of the pond and the upper left by the deck. The water from the bog will get filtered over and over before these other areas get filtered even once by comparison.

I'd lean toward the proposed intake bay being 1/4 of your suction pumps and at the top of the picture by the deck? i would make a second intake bay thats 4 times as strong as the proposed intake bay . the upper area you also have a narrow area there which is ideal for the intake bay.
Now you may be thinking there is no room for the snorkel centipede aquablocks for the intake at the top of the photo. The pump vault can be deeper providing the necessary volume that's you'll need.

I would also plan on some circulation pumps in the pond pushing toward the intakes.

Though my pond falls far short of what you are planning there's many questions and answers i put together from building the pond it will surely be helpful in planning . it's in my showcase which there is a link at the bottom of my post here.

In the showcase i also have a list of pond builders that will be helpful info from youtube.

Are you thinking rock in the pond or no rock

you have any idea the cost to run 3 -2.7 hp motors ? I run one 1 hp motor and that in ct is equal to 200- 250 a month , PUSHING 12000, GPH in This piss poor energy economy

Having the bog on the other side of the pond in a key viewing area there's little to think about , use that energy to create a water fall especially the amount of water you will have.

pond depth plus pond length plus pond height plus a foot is the forum that's on the internet but that is for simple builds. the more square the pond the easier to figure and stay safe. but unless you already know how to seam / melt fuse the liner already the less welding you have to do the better so look at the over all as how a square or rectangle can cover the are pus the drops in the walls plus 4 feet for each side would be my suggestion around 8 feet total for slack.

 

[combatwombat]

Great feedback from @GBBUDD. I have some thoughts to add but out of energy for tonight. Will try to type 'em up in the morning toddler sleep schedule depending.

 

[pondvideoaddict]

THATS A POND ALRIGHT. VERY JEALOUS. WELCOME
The first thing that's jumping out at me is you have two areas that will have to rely on circulation pumps to move the water . 2/3rds of your pond design is outside the flow from the bog. The water that is coming out of the bog is not being given the chance to flow around the pond. The first area that, that water is reaches is the intake ba. You'll have to provide the energy/ electric to push the water out of the beach area , the center of the pond and the upper left by the deck. The water from the bog will get filtered over and over before these other areas get filtered even once by comparison.

I'd lean toward the proposed intake bay being 1/4 of your suction pumps and at the top of the picture by the deck? i would make a second intake bay thats 4 times as strong as the proposed intake bay . the upper area you also have a narrow area there which is ideal for the intake bay.
Now you may be thinking there is no room for the snorkel centipede aquablocks for the intake at the top of the photo. The pump vault can be deeper providing the necessary volume that's you'll need.

I would also plan on some circulation pumps in the pond pushing toward the intakes.

Though my pond falls far short of what you are planning there's many questions and answers i put together from building the pond it will surely be helpful in planning . it's in my showcase which there is a link at the bottom of my post here.

In the showcase i also have a list of pond builders that will be helpful info from youtube.

Are you thinking rock in the pond or no rock

you have any idea the cost to run 3 -2.7 hp motors ? I run one 1 hp motor and that in ct is equal to 200- 250 a month , PUSHING 12000, GPH in This piss poor energy economy

Having the bog on the other side of the pond in a key viewing area there's little to think about , use that energy to create a water fall especially the amount of water you will have.

pond depth plus pond length plus pond height plus a foot is the forum that's on the internet but that is for simple builds. the more square the pond the easier to figure and stay safe. but unless you already know how to seam / melt fuse the liner already the less welding you have to do the better so look at the over all as how a square or rectangle can cover the are pus the drops in the walls plus 4 feet for each side would be my suggestion around 8 feet total for slack.

Hi GBUDD,

Thank you so much for your feedback but I'm having a little bit of a hard time following along with your reference points. You are proposing one intake bay be close to where the waterfall drops off (where the deck is) and the other intake bay be where the bog is? The very narrow area by the deck (which is actually a small bridge) is where the huge 120 ft waterfall lands. I will attach pictures. This is what the pond looked like when I bought the property - now it is a very very sad hole. A pond consultant suggested I put the intake bay in the place that I put it because there is a giant silver dollar eucalyptus above there but I originally thought it should be across from the bog as well. The electricity is on the other side of the road close to where the beach is and where the current external pump on the 120 ft waterfall lives so I thought it would be best to put the intake bay close to where I know there is electricity already run but absolutely open to hearing what you have to say...

The place where I am planning to put the bog is not a huge viewing area - it's actually more tucked away on the property but I might make it a small waterfall... it's just every little thing added is adding so much more money to an unexpected huge expense.

I do plan to rock all the perimeter and hopefully the second shelf as well and put gravel on the bottom but we will see if I run out of rock from my property - I definitely do not want to spend 50k on rock.

I do not have any idea how much energy those pumps pull - but I did just install a solar system that covers $700/month... I'm also fixing my well so hopefully I will have some energy to spare after that pump running as well. I think the volume of water is actually 175,000 so I might be able to get away with less pumps. So circulation pumps are different from the external pool pumps, do they also live in the intake bay?

For measuring, I planned to find the easiest rectangle - which is pretty much the deck to past the intake bay and then from the railroad ties to the rock that is close to the bog and then get a separate liner for the bog. Unless RPE easy to cut, I could order it extra huge to go past the bog and use the extra to line my waterfall.

Thank you so much again for taking the time. I will definitely check out both links.

P.s I look forward to hearing from you as well combatwombat - I too have a toddler and a four year old so I know the feeling all too well.

 

[YShahar]

Hi @pondvideoaddict ,

That is one very cool project! I think what @GBBUDD was getting at is that, because of the curvature going around the Gazebo, you'll have a lot of dead zones where water isn't being pushed / pulled enough to circulate well back to the bog. You would have much better circulation if you have the water going under the gazebo (which I realize creates a whole different set of problems).

You may be able to solve part of the problem of poor circulation via jets or waterfalls that push water out of the various covers, but you could also chose to pull water into those corners, by creating an intake bay at the end of each of them.

The main thing is to keep the water flowing; visualize the pond as a deeper zone in a flowing river. You can get this flow by either pushing water or pulling it. But which you chose should take into account the direction of the prevailing wind. I have a much smaller pond--about 6.5 meters in length, not counting another 2 meters for the intake bay--and even that small an area benefits a great deal from having the intake bay positioned downwind of the rest of the pond. By the end of the day, the wind has pushed most of the floating debris out of any dead zones and over to the intake bay, where the increased flow can pull it right in. So you'll get better results by pulling water downwind, rather than pushing it against the wind.

Happy ponding!
-Yael

PS. @GBBUDD and @combatwombat will have some very good advice on construction and pump choice. If you need help translating @GBBUDD's posts into English, just reach out to some here! ;-)

 

[pondvideoaddict]

Hi @pondvideoaddict ,

That is one very cool project! I think what @GBBUDD was getting at is that, because of the curvature going around the Gazebo, you'll have a lot of dead zones where water isn't being pushed / pulled enough to circulate well back to the bog. You would have much better circulation if you have the water going under the gazebo (which I realize creates a whole different set of problems).

You may be able to solve part of the problem of poor circulation via jets or waterfalls that push water out of the various covers, but you could also chose to pull water into those corners, by creating an intake bay at the end of each of them.

The main thing is to keep the water flowing; visualize the pond as a deeper zone in a flowing river. You can get this flow by either pushing water or pulling it. But which you chose should take into account the direction of the prevailing wind. I have a much smaller pond--about 6.5 meters in length, not counting another 2 meters for the intake bay--and even that small an area benefits a great deal from having the intake bay positioned downwind of the rest of the pond. By the end of the day, the wind has pushed most of the floating debris out of any dead zones and over to the intake bay, where the increased flow can pull it right in. So you'll get better results by pulling water downwind, rather than pushing it against the wind.

Happy ponding!
-Yael

PS. @GBBUDD and @combatwombat will have some very good advice on construction and pump choice. If you need help translating @GBBUDD's posts into English, just reach out to some here! ;-)

Thank you Yael,

As far as I can tell, the wind goes all different ways but maybe I'll pay better attention and see which way it usually goes - I don't live there right now so I'm not fully in tune. I was definitely planning on putting jets all around (but especially in the beach area) to move the water - I guess I didn't realize I might need a different pump for that.

I think the set of problems of going under the gazebo is definitely not worth it.

I'll take more pictures of the sad hole today and post!

 

[combatwombat]

I think step one is to figure out exactly what purpose you want the pond to serve (swimming? raising huge koi? just something nice to look at and sit around?) and what kind of budget you have to achieve it. We could set you up with a $1 million plan that would be finished by spring or a much more modest one that takes a few years to get done.

What's the current liner material? Have you considered a clay liner? At your size of feature, it could be a better long-term choice than a geomembrane. Might take a consultation with an engineer to know if it'll work, but if it would, I would seriously consider going that route.

If you end up going with something like an RPE liner, I think you'll be many $,$$$ ahead to consider using smaller liners and seaming, given the shape of the pond is very irregular. I think it would take a professional to properly do those seams, but probably worth it for the cost savings. The exception would be if a single, very large liner would provide a piece of waste sufficient to implement another planned feature like a stream.

Figuring out pumping requirements for a pond that size is a bit out of my league, but the general rule is that very large ponds need a much smaller turnover rate than larger ones. There are many large lakes and ponds that are successfully kept with nothing but aeration. Of course, bogs and jets will only improve the system and margin of safety if you can afford the equipment and electricity to run them.

I would seriously consider looking into air lift pumps on a project like this. Anywhere you need circulation and have some depth, air lifts can achieve that with very little cost.

Definitely agree w/ @GBBUDD about having multiple intake bays in a pond like this and balancing the flow through each to keep the whole system healthy.

You have incredible potential here. Really looking forward to seeing how it develops.

 

[combatwombat]

Another note on geomembrane liners:

Figuring out the right size to purchase is straightforward for a small, standard pond with a skimmer and separate liner for the waterfall. But once you have big curves, varying depths and humps to go up, over, and back down (e.g. intake bay) you really have to sharpen your pencil. Once you start folding to make curves work, liner starts disappearing fast.

 

[pondvideoaddict]

I think step one is to figure out exactly what purpose you want the pond to serve (swimming? raising huge koi? just something nice to look at and sit around?) and what kind of budget you have to achieve it. We could set you up with a $1 million plan that would be finished by spring or a much more modest one that takes a few years to get done.

What's the current liner material? Have you considered a clay liner? At your size of feature, it could be a better long-term choice than a geomembrane. Might take a consultation with an engineer to know if it'll work, but if it would, I would seriously consider going that route.

If you end up going with something like an RPE liner, I think you'll be many $,$$$ ahead to consider using smaller liners and seaming, given the shape of the pond is very irregular. I think it would take a professional to properly do those seams, but probably worth it for the cost savings. The exception would be if a single, very large liner would provide a piece of waste sufficient to implement another planned feature like a stream.

Figuring out pumping requirements for a pond that size is a bit out of my league, but the general rule is that very large ponds need a much smaller turnover rate than larger ones. There are many large lakes and ponds that are successfully kept with nothing but aeration. Of course, bogs and jets will only improve the system and margin of safety if you can afford the equipment and electricity to run them.

I would seriously consider looking into air lift pumps on a project like this. Anywhere you need circulation and have some depth, air lifts can achieve that with very little cost.

Definitely agree w/ @GBBUDD about having multiple intake bays in a pond like this and balancing the flow through each to keep the whole system healthy.

You have incredible potential here. Really looking forward to seeing how it develops.

Hi Combatwombat,

Thank you for your feedback. I would like the pond to preferably be swimmable with a few fish but it's not a deal breaker if it can't be that and only something nice to look at. I've been attempting to get this done for around 50k but it looks like it's really going to be closer to 100k - (like I.... but trust me, I got quotes from 200k to 1,000,000 for this pond revival! The RPE Liner from BTL is what I'm going to use and I do have professionals to install it. It's much cheaper to use RPE than EPDM and they are going to use really big machines to get the rocks in... We looked into clay liner and it's not going to work here. Luckily, I think I got free dirt for the fill which is possibly 300 yards??? So far, I've spent 10k on plumbing materials not including the pumps. For RPE Liner and overlayment, it will be a little over 10k and if I want to do underlayment, it will be an additional 2k.

I was curious about the pumping requirements because I also bought the DIY Organic Pools book and he only uses bog filtration and bubble pumps (air lift pumps) to keep it clear. If I could save money by having less pumps , that would be pretty amazing.
I'm definitely going to look into it more and if anybody has an opinion on that - please, please chime in. I'm buying all the equipment this week (hopefully)

Where do you think I should put the intake bays?

 

[GBBUDD]

Ok so i'm by far hands on in creating and building things, building in type not so much.

That pond is going to be a very expensive project. Particularly if you do it placing stone, which in my book is a must. You will want to do this right the first time . I would strongly suggest your reach out to the big boys. I see this is not just an average property but an estate. Your project is pretty close to the size of Aqualand "the pond out front of Aquascapes. "

I do not know the contractors in your area if this is something they can handle but , I would recommend Aquascapes, Modern design aquascapes, Atlantis water gardens , there are others but on a project that size they would probably reach out to each other and create a team.
This should truly be engineered. your intake bay is probably best using a concrete casket.

I would also recommend insurance , that being underlayment both under the liner and inside the liner under the rock . And if you have wildlife like prairie dogs gophers etc I would also entertain the idea of a 3 foot concrete blanket around the perimeter.

The rock wall an the concrete wall will have to be reworked . the liner could be brought up over them . But would then need a new retaining wall or boulders etc.

Beautiful property . Have you tried finding the leak i would start with the 125 foot waterfall. I assume your talking a stream coming down a hill side and not 125 foot actual drop. if it is the drop you could loose thousands of gallons to evaporation and splashing alone but id bet either way that maybe the problem area

 

[GBBUDD]

So circulation pumps are different from the external pool pumps, do they also live in the intake bay?

NO THEY ARE MORE INLINE WITH A AQUARIUM POWER HEAD.
but you can also have plumbing run to where you need a return jet/ circulation that is provided by the external pumps.

i would dare to guess 3 -2.7 hp pumps will probably run 500 or more a month in energy cost. i could be wrong . Not my strong suite i looked up those pumps but i could not find their gph

 

[GBBUDD]

I would seriously consider looking into air lift pumps on a project like this. Anywhere you need circulation and have some depth, air lifts can achieve that with very little cost.

a solid idea , the only draw back is surface agitation which is a good thing but i do enjoy when the surface is like glass but that can happen with the flip of a switch. air pumps are less energy costs as well both in buying them and their operation.

 

[combatwombat]

California Waterscapes has done a lot of very large ecosystem ponds in S. California. They’re an Aquascape contractor. I shutter to think of the cost, though.