Retrofit bottom drain - install without cutting liner in a running pond

Discussion in 'DIY - Do It Yourself' started by Usman, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Good Morning Lisak1!!

    I understand entirely. Although, I do not expect my friends to continually clarify nor correct what I say, unsolicited at each statement I submit that becomes presented to them. This creates a pettiness that I dislike, much as arguing. From this thread and previous thread, I thought I was noticing a pattern. Hopefully, this is just a simple misunderstanding.

    It's water under the bridge as they say, hopefuly.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  2. Usman

    MitchM

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    MitchM, Mar 11, 2017
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  3. Usman

    Lisak1

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    You'll find people here are both very kind and very smart. We do allow for lots of differences of opinion, but we do make sure to clarify when there are differing opinions vs things which are fact. For example - water is wet: fact. Ponds should never have rocks or gravel in them: opinion. When people state opinions as facts, you may find there are challenges. But it's through clarifying and bolstering our ideas that we learn and grow, right? Don't ever take it personally - it's all in the interest of developing as good pondkeepers.
     
    Lisak1, Mar 11, 2017
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  4. Usman

    Mucky_Waters

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    I believe it would be nearly impossible to maintain a reliable gravity fed bottom drain with a 3" or greater diameter pipe, especially like the one on the right side pictures below. Creating and maintaining a locked syphon pressure would be an ongoing problem. If fact I'm pretty sure that particular design on the right wouldn't even be workable at all.
    The one big advantage of a bottom drain system is that it can be gravity fed to a settling tank or a sieve or something similar which allows the bottom sediment that accumulates on the bottom of the pond to be captured and run smoothly to these devices BEFORE being blended up by the impellers of a pump. When you run a bottom drain directly to a pump first then on to any mechanical filters (like you would likely have to do in any retrofit bottom drain system) then you negate most of the advantages of having a bottom drain in the first place.
    The one exception to this might be if you install the retrofit drain through the side of the pond which is often more feasible in existing ponds then a full bottom install.

    [​IMG]
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 11, 2017
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  5. Usman

    Usman

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    good points , yes about pipe it wil need to be wide enough, im wondering why would the syphen break?

    do you have desighn of conventional BT that can remove particles before going thru pump? i can think after that how to improve or solve it

    i added settlement chamber for same thing some way to separate solid waste and keep flow then send water to filters , whats better design in this case can u draw any .

    Thanx
     
    Usman, Mar 11, 2017
    #25
  6. Usman

    Usman

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    i tried to show both as plan if you see 1st pic , i may use submersible
     
    Usman, Mar 11, 2017
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  7. Usman

    Usman

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    its ok Sir dont take it too serious , me and Mayer always argue too , we had fight in past too after that i was ignoring him then realized hes not bad person hes trying to help every one , can be critical strict at times but i got used to it i take him as uncle professor who tries to correct our shortcomings :) , some times hes rite some times us , same with every one here need to b patient on others wrong criticism after telling your logical points and on the other hand open for correction too
     
    Usman, Mar 11, 2017
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  8. Usman

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    I can relate as well as show by example; if you were to ask most aquarium keepers if external/additional filtering is necessary for success, I would put money on a sound 'yes'. That said, I've run a saltwater aquarium for years now and have no mechanical filtration. I let the substrate and live rock work as it should and do a water change, about 20%, once monthly. I have 5 fish in a 90 gallon tank, including some soft corrals and invertebrates.

    So, you can't keep saltwater fish without auxiliary filtering is fact or opinion? For me it's the latter.

    The thing is, most newbies want broad guidelines so as to have a starting point that supplies some success without destroying desire for the hobby, imo. In time, I think modifications can be made based on individual situations.

    Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Unless I find a better story, of course!

    Michael
     
    brokensword, Mar 11, 2017
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  9. Usman

    Mucky_Waters

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    The reason it's harder to maintain a syphon in a larger diameter pipe (tube) than in a larger pipe is because air infiltration. In a small pipe or tube small air bubbles will be pulled along by the flow of water, but in a large diameter pipe the air will tend to get trapped in the highest point in the pipe. A small amount of air up there may not disrupt the flow, but as more and more air gets trapped it will slow the flow eventually shutting it down completely. You'll find that getting all the air out of that pipe and creating a syphon in the first place will be quite a challenge, then over time air will eventually accumulate in there because of normal off gassing of the water.

    I wouldn't bother putting in a bottom drain into a pond, retro or standard, unless it was gravity feed.
    As I said, your best viable option would be to go through the side of the pond. This can usually be accomplished without draining the pond completely. And no air lock problems.
    Here is how I would do it.
    [​IMG]
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 11, 2017
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  10. Usman

    Lisak1

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    I agree with that... HOWEVER - when we were looking to build a pond, if the only information I had found said that I had to have extensive - and expensive - filtration that would need regular maintenance, I would have said "no thanks!" I'm an easy care kind of gardener.

    But as I was researching this pond idea I learned that there are other kinds of ponds out there that were perfect for people like me. As I read further, I realized I could build a pond that was even SIMPLER than the typical "Aquascape style" pond that I was considering by not having any manmade biofilter at all. MIND BLOWN. I was all in at that point, and as a result am a happy, thriving pond owner who might have been turned off if I had only found those forums (ahem) that insist there is only ONE RIGHT WAY to build a pond.

    So my story is just like yours - lots of people would tell you that a pond like mine would never work. But it does, in spite of them and their rules. haha!
     
    Lisak1, Mar 12, 2017
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  11. Usman

    Mucky_Waters

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    Other types of ponds???
    That's PREPOSTEROUS!
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 12, 2017
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  12. Usman

    Mucky_Waters

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    I should have said "The reason it's harder to maintain a syphon in a larger diameter pipe (tube) than in a smaller pipe is because of air infiltration.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 12, 2017
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  13. Usman

    Lisak1

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    haha! INCONCEIVABLE!
     
    Lisak1, Mar 12, 2017
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  14. Usman

    Faebinder

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    Y'all are making irritable that none of ya told me to make a bottom drain in my pond when I remade it last summer. You included Meyers...

    You're all on my crap list for the next 24 hours.

    Then again, I don't know if I can keep darters, fancy gold fish and dojo loaches with bottom drains.
     
    Faebinder, Mar 12, 2017
    #34
  15. Usman

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Probably because I didn't think that you would need one. I often use my inclusion on 'crap lists' in my list of references.;)
     
    Meyer Jordan, Mar 12, 2017
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  16. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    I entirely understand. Too many dogmas have infiltrated even the disciplined sciences due to failure to follow rules that keeps confirmation bias in check.

    "Water is wet" is a statement of common sense moreso than fact, reflecting the obvious without further dissemination. If you told a scientist "water is wet", then they would tell you it is a contradiction of semantics. However, we generally understand the essence of what is said and so it just makes common sense to us.

    You will not find any scientific study that factually validates that "water is wet".

    Limiting factors exist in all systems, and this determines feed regiment and fish numbers as well as other variables.

    Factors also exist that apply to all systems, such as the impacts of water flow through pipes and the impact this has on sedimentation inside a pipe.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 12, 2017
    #36
  17. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Lisak, I understand why you think your lecturing of me was needed, but I will not take it personally, yet.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 12, 2017
    #37
  18. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    @Usman , this is the more correct implementation of a gravity flow retrofited drain.

    This removes the water bridge in the siphon.

    @Usman , the water bridge in the siphon is the failure point.

    Water always contains gases that are waiting to be released. These gases eventually build up at the top, inside the siphon bridge. This accumulation of gases will eventually slow down the siphon to the point of failure.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 12, 2017
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  19. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    I understand, but I am not here to add more family members. I already have plenty of family, as well as the drama that goes with family. I am here because I enjoy helping others moreso than to receive criticism. I am quite open to disagreement when it actually occurs. I am quite happy to agree to disagree.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 12, 2017
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  20. Usman

    Lisak1

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    Totally NOT lecturing, but feel free to take it however you want.
     
    Lisak1, Mar 13, 2017
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