Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[Mucky_Waters]

Always one who like to stir the pot a little, I though post this video and get some feedback from forum members.

Do you agree with this guys line of reasoning?
If not, then why?
I'll withhold my comments until a few others have had a chance to view the video and comment.

 

[Dave 54]

I totally disageree with this guy as gravel and I go back 22 years it is a magnet for detritus and every month when indoors I had to vacuum it in our indoor tank.
In a pond unless your using a pond Vav there is no way you can get it cleaned and even then it'll get sucked into the Vac an have to be emptied before starting again.
Yes Gravel and Rocks look good but they are a pain the same as gravel.
You need to be going into winter with a clean pond and filter as there is a danger of wht are called an aeromonas infection.
If there is anywhere dirty this will become a breeding cround for these guys next thing you know you'll find your fish going down with ulcers amomgst other things.
An antibacterial treatment will have to be done just when your dish are at their weakest and are open to attack from them.
Every pond has them and normally they are not a threat but a dirty pond and these guys when they get together well that is another story and can be fatal to your fish .....


rgrds

Dave

 

[fishin4cars]

Mucky, You know I think this should have been brought up in the thread you have about Why you don't agree with Bogs. Or similar way you named it, I didn't go back and look. :zap: My point is, same principle and the two have very close similarities. There is a natural processes that shouldn't be ignored, but there is also the proven fact that if a pond is ignored and it has rocks and that bottom is disturbed (Koi digging, cleaning and maintaining, replanting, trying to net a fish) something is eventually going to disturb that bottom and your going to release that poisonous H2S and then in most cases, catastrophe.
There are so many variables, differences in style, and even goals at what you want out of a pond. I honestly believe I can set up a pond with rock bottom, and one without and be quite successful with both. If I approach each with mind set that each pond has it's own specific design and maintenance that needs to be monitored and maintained and not use the Basic principles of "most Fish keeping lined Ponds" Just as a Bog can be done, But there is always that knowing fact that there is going to be all that nasty mess being trapped in the bog gravel bed just as rocked bottom pond. A question that would arise from this, Do you want to maintain a little more constantly, or be more lazy and taking up a clean-up project that's a MAJOR ordeal once every 1-3 years, depending on leaves getting in the pond, fish load, plant's dying back, feeding, small insects, Etc.
In this type of set up, Bottom drains are pretty much useless, So basic filtration is pretty much your primary option. More complex filtration like vortex's, sieves, bead filtration, moving bed filters, and shower filtration now for the most part pretty much are going to be non-existent. Not that they can't be used, but rarely are, As the goal is keeping the pond as natural looking as possible, and not high tech goodies being viewed or seen in the set-up.
IMO, Koi should not be considered in the type of set-up shown, Especially high end Koi.( IMO High end Koi seem to be more susceptible to poor water conditions than flock spawn Koi, That's a discussion for another thread. LOL) Koi are going to dig, plants are not going to flourish as well, due to being Dug up and the leaves eaten, as the build up in the bottom increases the more likely the koi are going to stir things up (1 to 3 years down the road) and an unexpected gas releases are going to start the chain of events that leads to the big breakdown, First algae bloom, then a fish gets sick, medications are used, a fish dies and the whole enclosed system breaks down. Goldfish are far more suited for this style of pond. IMO.
Year's ago, there was much debate when salt water fish keepers started trying to keep corals and reef inhabitants. I said back then I thought there was more to the filtration and breakdown process than we may think, as the years progressed advances were made from both scientific and trial and errors and there were more discoveries of what and how plants used nitrates, anaerobic and aerobic bacteria became more discussed. Etc. etc. I still believe that there is still more to be learned and there are things that will surface in the next few years as more people start using bogs and rock bottom ponds with different degrees of success.
My advise to anyone that is going to try and take this route be open minded to what can take place and make plans for how and when you need to make adjustments, Plan before hand how your set-up is designed and read, read, read. Doing a pond with rocks has it pro's and con's. My advise is you need to know as much as possible about water quality, and how the breakdown process works long before attempting.
I personally don't agree with the keeping Koi, other than that, I do believe a pond can and are successfully kept going this route, and if properly done can be quite beautiful. But they can also be the most challenging and should not be done by novices, Experienced pond maintaining should be done before attempting this. Probably the reason you see Pond professionals promoting this is they are more guaranteed of return work, and they are more successful due to their long term exposure and experiences in the hobby.

 

[DrCase]

I'm sure the current in a river would be different then a small pond

 

[Dave 54]

fishi4cars I have a bottom drain which empties into my vortex once a week.
I empty that twice once to clean the muck out of the of the vortex then a second time to take the muck from the bottom drain , its quick and easy then we sit back and let the pomd fill on a trickle before switching the ppump on again.
Airstones keep the other filters going wilst this is going on
The other two filters get dome twice a year only emptying a bit out to flush the botom of the filter at regualar intervals .
The more natural style pond to me is much more hard workk as you say quote if you get lazy and leave the bottom for a few years ,
It's an argument that has been going on for many years and its not about to end soon, just who is right both have their merits and demerits it's sort of never the twain will meet
As long as both sides are aware of the dangers of not maintaining their respective ponds thats fine by me at least we know the outcome and that is fish may die as a result.
Koi by their nature ar bottom gubbers goldfish midwater and orfe and the like surface .
I would never allow leaves in the pond thats why its netted and as a defenc against preditors.
Koi ponds are in a way unatural deviod of plants and rocks but out of the two they are always the cleanest.

rgrds

Dave

 

[fishin4cars]

Dave, You have a bottom drain that empties into a vortex, that's common in a koi keeping, no rock bottom. What I'm saying is in a gravel bottom pond it would be pretty much useless, the bottom drain is going to get clogged by gravel and settling plant growth( Provided it planted as in the video, The drain isn't going to sweep or clean with the rock obstructing the bottom, and build up is going to occur with in just a short distance of the bottom drain even if it did work at all it would be minimal.

 

[crsublette]

I think folk just like the romanticism what Nature provides, that is helping critters, and this creates terrible tunnel vision. These folk are much more focused on humanizing the koi by talking about the koi's "feelings" and what a koi truely "desires". These folk are more concerned about what "feels good".
There is an extremely bad side to Nature as well that also kills critters, which occurs naturally without human intervention. These nature folk will not tell you how the bacteria convert the organics into mulm and then into dissolved organics and harmful chemicals/gasses. They also will never tell folk how these decomposing products increase the potential harm to koi fish.
Also, I think too many avid koi folk make a point to exaggerate, to point out the safety concerns, for the consumer since I know mud ponds are no where near as clean as a concrete/liner pond, but mud ponds do at least get dredged, turned over, and nuked annually by folk that are able to temporarily move out the fish.
Of course, I bet ya the businesses will never be honest with the customer since they will lose the revenue from the continuing pond maintenance.

 

[sissy]

I had those shiny Mexican black stones in the bottom of my pond .They just heated the water and when I took them out after the first summer of my new pond I could not believe all the muck under them .I had to filter the water as I was gently taking them out and moving the pump to pick up all the muck and clean the filter every 15 minutes .It took me all day .I listen to a pond guy here and biggest mistake I ever made .One year of stones and that mess ,no thank you .Natural ponds with plenty of fresh water flow may not have the muck build up problems as the water is moving and replenishing itself .Plus you feed the fish the more poo you get .The guy went out of business of course .All that money wasted on stones and he told me since these were shiny ones muck would not stick to them ,he lied .Sorry I gave him the money for the stones but glad I did not but all the fancy pond stuff he wanted to sell me .Plus all the chemicals and the yearly cleanout he suggested and thats when i ran away from him .All he got from me was the 85 dollars for the rocks .They do look pretty :razz: in my garden ,BUT STILL GET HOT AS HECK .

 

[Dave 54]

I think folk just like the romanticism what Nature provides, that is helping critters, and this creates terrible tunnel vision. These folk are much more focused on humanizing the koi by talking about the koi's "feelings" and what a koi truely "desires". These folk are more concerned about what "feels good".

There is an extremely bad side to Nature as well that also kills critters, which occurs naturally without human intervention. These nature folk will not tell you how the bacteria convert the organics into mulm and then into dissolved organics and harmful chemicals/gasses. They also will never tell folk how these decomposing products increase the potential harm to koi fish.

Also, I think too many avid koi folk make a point to exaggerate, to point out the safety concerns, for the consumer since I know mud ponds are no where near as clean as a concrete/liner pond, but mud ponds do at least get dredged, turned over, and nuked annually by folk that are able to temporarily move out the fish.

Of course, I bet ya the businesses will never be honest with the customer since they will lose the revenue from the continuing pond maintenance.

crsublette most koi keepers dont exaggerate not when your spending upwards of Thousands even our £125 koi is a big investment so we have to know what we are about .
Granted some dont, they dont last long but when you get into the otherside of koi keeping i;e the health aspect....then its such a fasenating world it sort of sucks you in and you just have to learn more and if your dealing in koi even more so .
The mud ponds they go in may not be parasite free but the koi are put in their to bring them on.
These pond abound in various minerals hat the koi take up.
Any problems when they come out are treated before sale.
Koi keeping I would say for me is more of a disapline I have to learn I find ejoyment in both learning and keeping and am always open to new ideas.

rgrds

Dave

 

[j.w]

I think those people in that video would be more than glad to come and clean your pond bottom w/ all that gravel in it yearly or perhaps even more...................of course for a nice fat fee...............other wise if you have a nice clean bottom pond w/ no rocks that you can take care of yourself where will they get the money to fund their kids through college? Signed: Rockless near Seattle :razz:

 

[Dave 54]

Having gone through the video again try telling to the New Zealand authories koi are killing off the natural fish of that country .
Yes I agree with jw that these guys will come around and clean your pond for you.
When I could no longer manage to kep the gracel clean in our indoor setup I enquired into a tank cleaning service the guy came round and gave me the price £150 just for cleaning the tank , hell I got my friend Matt out who did it after a days work at the fish outlet where he ooked after koi anfd he did it for £10 so I'm with jw on this its in these guys interest you have gravel it'll cost you more to get the pond cleaned than probably what it cost you to put it together in the first place
I take issue with pond myth 16 koi need the depth of water recomended between 4-5 ft deep what planet are these guys on this is all working to their advantage oh so your ko died last winter , no problem we'll sell you some more.


rgrds

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Pond myth 15 no U/V ha now I know they are nuts

rgrds

Dave

 

[crsublette]

Fella, when folk are spending$9,000 per fish and tremendously more, I bet ya these folk are going to go way overboard to the point where TDS levels must always remain pristine, will do weekly PP treatments or more often to ensure there is zero algae and close to zero dissolved organics., they will definitely not have plants, would likely tremendously heat the pond or have an indoor pond, and would likely have 1 koi per 2,400 gallons.

Sure, you can rationalize this OCD approach due to what they paid for them, but this does not indicate a person will always have sick fish if they do not go as far.

 

[crsublette]

Actually, most koi keepers do exaggerate due to the " it is better to be safe than sorry" theory. They do it to protect the begginers, which is understandable; although, it is quite dishonest and aggravating to folk who are not looking for the gradeschool version of pond keeping.

Problem with businesses, such as those in the video, is that they have the, " don't worry... you'll be ok... we got your back with our 'special' products " theory.

There are extremes on both sides.

 

[Dave 54]

In the four years that the pond has been running I've only treated the pond once and that was last year when a supposed quarentined gin rin showa for our grow and show came down with whitespot.
They are scraped every so often checking the slide under our bresser microscope hence the whitespot.
Our health officer was saying that there are only a small number of people he can trust to not to have much in the way of problems Val and I are two of them, that to me is a great compliment
One friend recently rescued some koi from a former member who has left his poor koi with scar's big enough to fit my fist into some of them not healed around the outer edges why treating them the way he did was damn right barbaric and totally avoidable we anaged to treat the sores successfully using the koi klear gel which had this idiot treated his koi with it would have left no scars.
Test weekly maintain weekly observe your fish weekly feed them the best food you can buy tree to four times daily with a one day no feed once a week.
make the food interesting give them diiffering taste's textures as a treat , extra vitanims , add clay once a week and quite basically you cannot go wrong.
The pond has algae all nicely cropped on the sides and bottom why PP your pond when it doesnt need it thats like setting a nuke of in the pond and defeats the object.
there is a saying in the koi world become a keeper of water before you become a keeper of koi and its true look after the water and the fish will look after themselves, that saying is as true today as when we first started.
Yes weve lost koi eight all told and yes from time to time koi will fall ill that I wont denigh but if you keep on top of things then at least you give them a head start and will pay you back in spades .
But how am I rationalizing anything its all basic fish keeping I'm no expert,I'd love Peter Waddington to go up against what those guys are saying he'd eat them up and spit them out in bubbles he really would.
Most fish die because somemone has taken their eye off the ball and makes a mistake , If you make a mistake I find it tends to refocus you, I admit to any mistake I make you have too otherwise your going to do it again and again its not worth the upset

rgrds

Dave