Sick fish?....floating about on top of water

[jhen]

Hi all, new to these forums and looking for some advice/help!

Pond info: approx 3000 gallons in volume, outdoor oval pond with filters and pumps (currently not working!) used to be home to various Koi Carp and goldfish/goldfish mixes.

Around June of 2011, or possibly earlier, the smaller fish in the pond - some goldfish/koi mixes and some white/pinky koi type fish - spawned and had lots of babies.

Today I've found one of them floating on top of the water. It's not dead but seems very lethargic and I can see some missing/damaged scales and possibly a small area where it's a bit red (blood???).

The first picture you can see some scale damage and missing scales around its belly and tail area. The second and third pic you can you some red bits on some scales just below it's mid section.

As I mentioned the pump is not working, it stopped working yesterday for no reason. The outside temperature around my area has been approx 13-21 degrees celsius for yesterday and today. I have turned on a tap to add fresh water into the pond both yesterday and today.

There is an ambundance of algae in the pond around the edges, occasionally lots of hair algae which i remove the vast majority of when i return home to the pond (i live in the city). I found a small leech yesterday if it helps? Upon my return a few days ago I also found 2 dead mice in the vortex barrel (a few weeks before i found a dead duckling), I'm not sure if this could have somehow contributed to the fish being sick?

That said, there are about 70-120 baby fish and so far I have only seen this one fish floating about *fingers crossed*

Is there anything I can do to improve the water quality/treat for parasites in general without harming the fish since they are so small and are only over a year old?

Thank you for your help in advance!

 

[Mmathis]

Welcome! I would work on either getting the pump fixed or replacing it. Others will want to know if you test your water regularly and if so, what are those results (numbers instead of "OK"), what kind of filtration you have, sources of aeration, how are the other fish acting, do you have plants, and approx. # and size of your fish (in addition to all the babies), etc. etc. The more information you can give, will be helpful to those here who can help you figure things out.

The dead mice & duckling don't sound too good -- do you think they just got in & couldn't get out?

Anyway, hope all gets better for you.

 

[jhen]

Thank you for your reply!

Unfortunately I am fairly useless at looking after the pond :-S it's at my family home and I'm usually only there for a few hours every month or so and no one else is around to check up on the pond etc. I'm not really sure how I would go about testing the water I'm pretty much clueless apart from having to feed the fish and clean out and algae overgrowth.

No other fish within the pond, the parents of the current babies were given away to relatives to look after along with what I presumed at the time to be the vast majority of the babies!
Previous Koi fish all died during the mini heatwave in June 2011 when the pump failed and the water turned thick and green

I'm not 100% sure on the amount of baby fish but at a rough guess I'd say 70-120 of them ranging from 1inch to perhaps 2.5inches


Filtration and aeration: The pond is approx 3000 gallons, oval shaped with a filter/suction dome in the centre at the bottom of the pond (approx 1m deep) as far as I know the water sucked in by the dome goes into a vortex barrel where most of the algae/mud and other particles settle at the bottom of the vortex. The water then makes it's way through a 3 stage compartmented filter system; 1) 3 rows of 3 large bristle brushes, 2) rows of what I can only describe as open spaced woven fibreglass/plastic sponges and 3) a layer of rocks with holes in them with the pump sitting on top sucking filtered water back into the pond via an exit pipe with air intake holes.

No plantlife in the pond apart from algae on the edges...however there is a plant that was planted on the edge which is covering and resting on the surface of the water (see pic).

The fish are acting kind of funny...normally they are active and tend to swim about a lot but today they seem docile...kinda semi floating (not on their sides or backs) just below the surface and not moving much for some periods of time, but they are still eating and do swim away/dive deeper when I get too close most of the time.

There's normally a cover over the vortex barrel to stop leaves and stuff getting in but it's made of wood so it has warped considerably over the last 15years or so and it's more or less rotten now. The duckling and mice more than likely crawled into the vortex as the cover doesn't sit flush with the rim anymore. They couldn't get out because the water level wasn't high enough for them to jump back out I guess.

I fill the pond up to the level of the overflow pipe and when I return a week or two later the water level has gone down by a few inches, to the point where the water pumps exit pipe is actually out of the water with little coming out. I'm not sure if it's a leak or whether the drainage valve (which is broke) is slightly ajar.

EDIT: There's also a UV light tube attached behind the 3 filter system, to kill the algae as water passes through I believe?

 

[Shoestring Ponder]

I am not totally certain, but it looks like that overhanging bush may be some sort of a cedar and if I recall correctly, resin from the cedar is poisonous to fish. It also looks like there are berries on it which the fish may have eaten. I have not other clue, but personally, I would trim back that overhanging bush so none of it is near nor above the water.

:goldfish:

 

[jhen]

ack really?? guess i'll have to find a way of trimming the bush so it doesn't contaminate the water gonna be a massive pain. I didn't know cedars were harmful to fish, guess you do learn something new everyday!

oh, and no berries on the bush as far as I can tell, but i guess it's a mute point

 

[Waterbug]

That's an Angel Trumpet, Brugmansia, overhanging my San Jose Koi pond.

All parts of Brugmansia are poisonous, with the seeds and leaves being especially dangerous.

For years my Koi ate the flowers and leaves. They broke off branches pulling on leaves. Koi were fine. Virtually every plant is toxic at some level, to some animal. Tomato, potato, peanuts, etc., all toxic. Animals are pretty good at telling what they can and cannot eat. They were fine long before humans came a long, they'll be fine long after we're gone.

As for the fish I assume the damage is the result of spawning.

 

[Shoestring Ponder]

WB, I am referring to the one in pic #1and2 that is to the left. of center. What plant is that?

:goldfish:

 

[jhen]

thanks for the replies!

Erm, by damage I assume you mean the lack of scales on some patches? As a result of spawning....maybe I'm reading it incorrectly but you believe the damage is from the fish participating in spawning?

I'm asking, and a little confused, as these fish were born/spawned back in June 2011 and they are still tiny (up to 2.5 inches) so I assumed they would not be able to spawn so soon?

 

[jhen]

I think WB's point is that the fish will figure out what's safe for them to eat eventually and will learn to not eat things which are bad for them etc?

Thinking about it though, that plant has been in the pond for a few years, even before the babies were born and even though I check up on the pond now and then so far I have only seen 2 fish that were sideways floating including this one. The first one was dead so I can't really say much about it. Since there are probably over a hundred babies I would have thought that if they are eating/nibbling or somehow ingesting the poisonous sap that I would have found more dead/distressed fish by now? :-S

 

[Waterbug]

WB, I am referring to the one in pic #1and2 that is to the left. of center. What plant is that?

I don't know. I didn't look at the pictures.

I think WB's point is that the fish will figure out what's safe for them to eat eventually and will learn to not eat things which are bad for them etc?

Yep.

Thinking about it though, that plant has been in the pond for a few years, even before the babies were born and even though I check up on the pond now and then so far I have only seen 2 fish that were sideways floating including this one. The first one was dead so I can't really say much about it. Since there are probably over a hundred babies I would have thought that if they are eating/nibbling or somehow ingesting the poisonous sap that I would have found more dead/distressed fish by now?

Exactly. Hard to beat good old common sense.

Not on this forum but in another pond forum someone would post a list of toxic plants every few months. Everyone would go crazy, wringing of hands, threats to rip out every "toxic" plant. And the lists were always changing...because pretty much every plant is toxic in some way to some creature. I almost thought it was a joke just to see how many people would rip out plants.

I'm asking, and a little confused, as these fish were born/spawned back in June 2011 and they are still tiny (up to 2.5 inches) so I assumed they would not be able to spawn so soon?

One year is about right for goldfish spawning. Can even be less under the right conditions. The reason I suspect spawning is the description of the scales and red areas, the location of the damage (underside) and the shape of the fish in the picture looks female, but just a guess.

 

[jhen]

oh god if it's true that they are spawning I'm in trouble

100+ current baby fish spawning together = population explosion!

Although, not to knock your opinion and insight in any way, going back to the plant theory wouldn't I be seeing more sideways floating fish since odds are there's going to be many females within the 100+ fish?

But then again...I have seen some of the fish seemingly swim around in a school like formation in groups of maybe 25 fish so I guess that could be the spawning behaviour of males chasing the female/s?

I guess I'll find out if I see foam/bubbles on the surface within the next few weeks?!

 

[Waterbug]

Although, not to knock your opinion and insight in any way, going back to the plant theory wouldn't I be seeing more sideways floating fish since odds are there's going to be many females within the 100+ fish?

No problem. You're there, I'm here and just guessing. They don't normally all spawn at the same time, not all spawn, and not all are damaged enough to die or have difficulty.

But then again...I have seen some of the fish seemingly swim around in a school like formation in groups of maybe 25 fish so I guess that could be the spawning behaviour of males chasing the female/s?

Spawning is fairly violent. While some males will trail there will be 3,4,5 right behind & below the female pushing her at times. The males dart about pretty fast. Most people think fish are ganging up and attacking a single fish.

The issue with spawning is normally a lack of a place to spawn. Plants or spawn mops. Without that the female keeps looking for a place while the males keep pushing and she gets beat to death. The plants and/or mops also give the female a place to hide when she's done. Only the female seems to know when she's done, the males continue for awhile.

I guess I'll find out if I see foam/bubbles on the surface within the next few weeks?!

Unlikely. Goldfish are pretty small, not much organic matter is added to the water.

100+ current baby fish spawning together = population explosion!

I wouldn't worry about that. These things have a way of taking care of themselves. With each female laying hundreds of eggs anyone with a few fish would find themselves knee deep in goldfish pretty fast. But that doesn't normally happen. Many eggs don't make it, many fry don't find enough food and starve before they're ever seen. And lets face it, most ponds aren't kept in optimal conditions so many fish die. For example, in good conditions the goldfish in the picture, a Common, would be in the 5-8" range at one year old. So the small size kind of tells the story that the pond can barely support the fish there now. I'm not knocking your pond, this is true for most ponds including ones I've kept in the past.

 

[jhen]

Hi again

thanks for all the further info/advice.

I went to my local garden centre/koi pool area and bought a water testing kit and a new pump today, and am somewhat confused about the test results.

I've taken pictures of the results but it looks different to the eye so I won't upload them.

Seems I've jinxed myself with my comment about seeing more distressed fish. I found 3 (4) this morning all floating somewhat sideways although they were at different depths. One was on the surface more or less, another was approx 10inches deep and along the edge of the pond like the first but the third fish was resting at the bottom of the pond in a more central (away from the wall edges) manner.

I've taken pictures of the fish, when I first put them in the container 2 of them would sink to the bottom (admittedly it's only 6inches deep or less) while the other fish floated on the surface.

I'm not sure if you can tell but the scales of the fish seem a little raised so when you look top down on them they appear jagged and not smooth.

Water tests: PH results of the pond water is around 8.5 but at the same time could pass for either 8.0 or 9.0 visually. The Water PH of a tap that feeds into the pond for topping up the water level is tested at PH7.5.

The Ammonia is between 0.0 and 0.25 but probably closer to 0.25 so at a rough guess 0.15?

I'm not exactly sure what these results mean.

Well I know my pond isn't great, as I live some distance away from my family home I can't really give it the care it needs to maintain a healthy system. I come back for a few hours or maybe a few days every month or so, sometimes more, sometimes less :neutral: doesn't help that the pump isn't reliable either.

I've attached the new pump...but something keeps tripping the fusebox so after lots of trial and error flicking a lot of swtiches on and off I've called an electrician and hopefully he can help get the electricity feed to the pump working tomorrow.

 

[Mmathis]

I know you're frustrated, but hang in there!

 

[jhen]

oh I'm hanging in there haha, been hanging in for the last 2 years or so :neutral: losing 20+ fully grown Koi that were a few years younger than me (I'm 26) last year turned me into a gibbering wreck for a few weeks so I'm sure I'll get through this latest test lol.

Mini update, the 3 fish in my previous pics seem to be a bit perkier (1 was still a bit mopy I think). I gave them a decent splash of tap water (PH 7.5 compared to the 8.0-9.0 of the pond water), went out for a few hours came back and they were swimming a bit more as opposed to floating.

I've left the tap on a trickle into the pond and it's hit the overflow level so I'm hoping it will siphon off a percentage of any toxins that may be in the water and hopefully lower the PH, albeit only a slight decrease. Will leave it on overnight and test the P.H and Ammonia again tomorrow to see if it's made a difference!

Thanks again everyone for the advice and info, will update you as and when!