HARO
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Looks to me like dropsy. Usually related to poor water parameters.
John
John
Sick fish?....floating about on top of water
- Thread starter jhen
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Yes, that sure does look like dropsy. I don't remember of ever hearing of multiple fish being at this stage all at the same time.
jhen, as you research dropsy keep in mind that dropsy is just a term for a symptom. It just means something bad inside the fish, the cause can be many things. For that reason treatment is difficult. And at this stage it's normally fatal. If you want to take action I suggest you focus on the other fish in the pond.
Given this isn't your pond there probably isn't much that can be done. The best way to fix most of the things that cause dropsy is to improve water quality. Unfortunately that take a fair amount of learning and effort.
For example, your tap water, is it city water with chlorine? That's not good to add too much without treating it.
Fish like stable pH. 8 to 9 is fine. Trying to lower it is very dangerous for the fish. If you want to research Google "pond pH buffering".
There are many things you can do to improve water quality. You could be quickly overwhelmed by all the choices. I'd start with easy stuff and go slowly. Learning is going to save more fish than doing.
Step one could be to make sure your filters are cleaned if they haven't been cleaned in a while.
Adding tap water, even with chlorine, is a good way to improve water fast since you already have an overflow. For a 3000 gal pond the water can be added at between 2 and 12 GPH, I suggest closer to 2 GPH. You can buy a drip irrigation emitter that drips at 2 GPH. You run it 24/7. It's best to add the drip to a stream or falls or skimmer, some moving water, not sure if you have that.
jhen, as you research dropsy keep in mind that dropsy is just a term for a symptom. It just means something bad inside the fish, the cause can be many things. For that reason treatment is difficult. And at this stage it's normally fatal. If you want to take action I suggest you focus on the other fish in the pond.
Given this isn't your pond there probably isn't much that can be done. The best way to fix most of the things that cause dropsy is to improve water quality. Unfortunately that take a fair amount of learning and effort.
For example, your tap water, is it city water with chlorine? That's not good to add too much without treating it.
Fish like stable pH. 8 to 9 is fine. Trying to lower it is very dangerous for the fish. If you want to research Google "pond pH buffering".
There are many things you can do to improve water quality. You could be quickly overwhelmed by all the choices. I'd start with easy stuff and go slowly. Learning is going to save more fish than doing.
Step one could be to make sure your filters are cleaned if they haven't been cleaned in a while.
Adding tap water, even with chlorine, is a good way to improve water fast since you already have an overflow. For a 3000 gal pond the water can be added at between 2 and 12 GPH, I suggest closer to 2 GPH. You can buy a drip irrigation emitter that drips at 2 GPH. You run it 24/7. It's best to add the drip to a stream or falls or skimmer, some moving water, not sure if you have that.
Salt can work for some causes. Not good to do stuff without understanding why you're doing it. Salt can interfere with other treatments. So you'd could have a pond with salt and not able to do another treatment that might actually solve something. Here's a video that explains a few things.
thanks Waterbug
I've read up a little on Dropsy and like you mentioned it is more of a term for symptoms with no singular cause as such.
When I bought the water testing kit the guy at the garden centre told me that for PH balance if the result was at either end of the extremes that it would be a worry. As far as the scale provided with the kit 8.0-9.0 is borderline "high". The manual even states it is bad for fish *shrug*
Your statement seems a little conflicting, unless I read it wrong?
"Fish like stable pH. 8 to 9 is fine. Trying to lower it is very dangerous for the fish." ... "Adding tap water, even with chlorine, is a good way to improve water fast since you already have an overflow." > my understanding of my tap water P.H level of 7.5 being in the mid range and replacing some/most of the current pond water (P.H 8.0-9.0) in order to lower the P.H to a more nominal level (more acceptable for the fish from what the garden centre guy told me) may be a bad thing as fish like stability? Unless you meant that adding tap water would improve water quality in another way besides P.H levels? Sorry, I'm not very clued up on pond maintenance so I may get things confused or mixed up.
Back to dropsy...as mentioned previously that dropsy is more of a symptom than a disease I would assume that I would not need to remove the affected fish and quarantine them as it is not a contagious disease but more likely a combination of negative factors contributing to ill health?
As for my water supply. I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, sorry. My family home is in a suburban area, a small town. As far as I am aware most if not all of the water within the UK has some chlorine in it. I believe it is "soft" water and unlike built up city areas like London there is no chalky residue in the water. Not sure how helpful this info is.
The pond belonged to my late parents so at the moment I am looking after the house etc until I figure out what to do with everything really. So I am able to do any tratments necessary to improve the health of the fish.
For the input of tap water into the pond it enters via a hose situation near the middle of the ponds edge (in one of the pictures you can see what looks like seating/flagstone area on the edge of the pond) which is approx 1metre to the right of the overflow and pump nozzle, so I'm not sure if I would be able to fit one to the tap.
For the filters, because the vortex drainage valve is broken I am not able to release the build up at the bottom of the vortex into the waste drain, as a side effect of that very little vegetation flows into the 3 filter chamber. The filters were cleaned maybe back in february or so and as far as I can tell there isn't much build up on thr wire brushes or sponge layers.
Thanks again for your help and advice. I'm off to bed, will check up on the water tests tomorrow after leaving the tap to trickle overnight.
I've read up a little on Dropsy and like you mentioned it is more of a term for symptoms with no singular cause as such.
When I bought the water testing kit the guy at the garden centre told me that for PH balance if the result was at either end of the extremes that it would be a worry. As far as the scale provided with the kit 8.0-9.0 is borderline "high". The manual even states it is bad for fish *shrug*
Your statement seems a little conflicting, unless I read it wrong?
"Fish like stable pH. 8 to 9 is fine. Trying to lower it is very dangerous for the fish." ... "Adding tap water, even with chlorine, is a good way to improve water fast since you already have an overflow." > my understanding of my tap water P.H level of 7.5 being in the mid range and replacing some/most of the current pond water (P.H 8.0-9.0) in order to lower the P.H to a more nominal level (more acceptable for the fish from what the garden centre guy told me) may be a bad thing as fish like stability? Unless you meant that adding tap water would improve water quality in another way besides P.H levels? Sorry, I'm not very clued up on pond maintenance so I may get things confused or mixed up.
Back to dropsy...as mentioned previously that dropsy is more of a symptom than a disease I would assume that I would not need to remove the affected fish and quarantine them as it is not a contagious disease but more likely a combination of negative factors contributing to ill health?
As for my water supply. I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, sorry. My family home is in a suburban area, a small town. As far as I am aware most if not all of the water within the UK has some chlorine in it. I believe it is "soft" water and unlike built up city areas like London there is no chalky residue in the water. Not sure how helpful this info is.
The pond belonged to my late parents so at the moment I am looking after the house etc until I figure out what to do with everything really. So I am able to do any tratments necessary to improve the health of the fish.
For the input of tap water into the pond it enters via a hose situation near the middle of the ponds edge (in one of the pictures you can see what looks like seating/flagstone area on the edge of the pond) which is approx 1metre to the right of the overflow and pump nozzle, so I'm not sure if I would be able to fit one to the tap.
For the filters, because the vortex drainage valve is broken I am not able to release the build up at the bottom of the vortex into the waste drain, as a side effect of that very little vegetation flows into the 3 filter chamber. The filters were cleaned maybe back in february or so and as far as I can tell there isn't much build up on thr wire brushes or sponge layers.
Thanks again for your help and advice. I'm off to bed, will check up on the water tests tomorrow after leaving the tap to trickle overnight.
Stable pH
Yes, it does sound conflicting. And that's a big problem with learning about ponds. There are few absolutes, most things are trade offs. Also there's a tremendous amount of really bad info. And of the good info it depends on the type of pond. High end Koi ponds consider things like plants to be very bad while in a water garden they would be considered very good. There are valid reasons why plants are bad and valid reasons why plants are good.
I'll try to explain in an overly simplified way just to try and give you an overview. Then you can research for details if you like.
Many experienced pond keepers add baking soda to their pond. That raises the pH into the 8.3 - 9 range. This is called pH buffering.
Optimal pH is about 7.5. So why do experienced pond keepers make their pH 8.3-9? Because the baking soda keeps the pH stable so they don't have "pH crash" or "pH swings" which can be deadly. Without pH buffering pH can swing wildly, 4.0 to 10.0.
Some experienced pond keepers do try and keep pH lower and stable, but that takes a lot of effort. Certainly not something an inexperienced keeper can pull off. So for an inexperienced keeper lowering pH can lead to dead fish.
Google "pond pH buffering" for more info.
People who sell products like to say high pH is a problem because they sell products to lower pH. I can assure you many ponds (maybe most) are kept at pH above 8, even 9 is not uncommon. High end Koi keepers report normal growth at these higher pH levels. There is debate on whether it makes the white on Koi less white, but even that has been debatable. There seems to be no risk to fish at pH 8-9.
Adding tap water...
Water from wells would not have chlorine. So I assume your water does have chlorine. Chlorine in large amounts can kill fish. If you need to add a lot there a product that can be added to neutralize the chlorine.
Trickle water change of 2-12 GPH (gallons per hour), with chlorine and no neutralizer added is considered safe for a 3000 gal pond.
That the tap water is 7.5 will probably not lower the pH of your pond at least short term. What? It's the pH buffering. Ever add an acid to baking soda? It bubbles. The baking soda is like 9.0 pH and the acid is like 2. If you take a cup of baking soda and add a drop of acid it'll bubble and stop. A little bit of the baking soda reacted with the acid cancelling each other out. Some of the baking soda is lost in the process. The pH of the cup will still be 9.0. Add more acid, still 9.0. At some point the last little bit of baking soda left is used up and bam the pH goes from 9.0 to 2. The baking soda act as a buffer, keeping pH stable. There is something in your water keeping pH up, acting as a buffer. Adding 7.5 water only uses up some of the buffer.
However, that's not specific to your pond. The level of pH in many ponds cycle through out the day. If you measured 8.0 in the afternoon you might measure 7.0 in the early morning. Google "daily pond ph swing" for more info. A more important measurement imo is KH rather than pH. Let's say KH is the measurement of the amount of buffer in the pond. From that number you know if your pH will be stable for some time in the future. Knowing KH means you really don't need to measure pH except maybe as a confirmation.
Why adding tap water is good...
Basically given a pond that has some problem that isn't understood but poor water quality is suspected a trickle water change is the easiest and safest way for an inexperienced keeper to improve quality. Let's say it makes water stable and removes problem chemicals like ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and other problems. And it's a slow change so you don't have to learn a bunch of stuff about the dangers of fast temp and pH changes. Here's a video that explains it.
Sounds like a reasonable guess.
I'd say you have that optimal water for Goldfish and Koi many people would love to have. That makes a trickle water change system a great choice for you. You wouldn't have to worry about many things like baking soda, pH, etc.
Hi again
Regarding the P.H 7.5 or mid range values I was going off the manual which says that 8.5 and above is high and unsuitable for fish so I can't say whether that is accurate or not given that you and others who are helping me are experienced fish keepers.
Ah, I see about the buffering. Basically adding an agent to keep the P.H level stable so that it doesn't drastically drop or increase...which is a more dangerous prospect for fish, the volatile changing in P.H as opposed to a too high P.H.?
On the topic of P.H, I tested the water at approximately 11am and the P.H level has dropped to 8.0 (more easy to distinguish than yesterdays read) as opposed to being around 8.0-9.0. The ammonia reading has also changed slightly, with less of a green tinge so it's probably closer to 0.00mg now.
Visually the fish seem to be a bit more active and tend to "hang" motionless near the sufrace less than yesterday. There was also a strong wind which created surface ripples unlike yesterday where the water was very calm and still. Having said that, the fish do still seem to come to the surface now and again. Also found one dead fish floating on the surface, it's eyes were'nt glazed white so I'm guessing it hadn't died long.
As you can see in the pic it's belly is fairly swollen. I felt and pressed it a little with my fingers and it seemed like there was trapped air inside but can not really confirm this. There was also some redness on the underside of the belly near the...anus of the fish?
Bad news is the pump is still not working. The electrician came around and has identified that it is the pump that has been tripping the fuse box. It may be because the inside of the switchbox for the pump/filter/UV controls have gotten wet given the more or less constant rain over the last few weeks. The time it did work was when I installed the new pump during a sunny period. So, he advised to wait another day or so to see if the insides dry up and to test it again. Problem is is that it is raining now even as I type so there's no way I can open the panel to disconnect the UV (incase it's the UV at fault) nor can I open the panel to let it "breathe" and dry out any moisture.
Having found 3 distressed fish yesterday, I could only see one dead fish today. Incidentally 2 of the fish yesterday seemed perkier in the tub, so I'm not sure how indicative of anything that is?
Time for more research til the weather gets better I guess!
Thanks again for the advice and will update when I have any news!
Regarding the P.H 7.5 or mid range values I was going off the manual which says that 8.5 and above is high and unsuitable for fish so I can't say whether that is accurate or not given that you and others who are helping me are experienced fish keepers.
Ah, I see about the buffering. Basically adding an agent to keep the P.H level stable so that it doesn't drastically drop or increase...which is a more dangerous prospect for fish, the volatile changing in P.H as opposed to a too high P.H.?
On the topic of P.H, I tested the water at approximately 11am and the P.H level has dropped to 8.0 (more easy to distinguish than yesterdays read) as opposed to being around 8.0-9.0. The ammonia reading has also changed slightly, with less of a green tinge so it's probably closer to 0.00mg now.
Visually the fish seem to be a bit more active and tend to "hang" motionless near the sufrace less than yesterday. There was also a strong wind which created surface ripples unlike yesterday where the water was very calm and still. Having said that, the fish do still seem to come to the surface now and again. Also found one dead fish floating on the surface, it's eyes were'nt glazed white so I'm guessing it hadn't died long.
As you can see in the pic it's belly is fairly swollen. I felt and pressed it a little with my fingers and it seemed like there was trapped air inside but can not really confirm this. There was also some redness on the underside of the belly near the...anus of the fish?
Bad news is the pump is still not working. The electrician came around and has identified that it is the pump that has been tripping the fuse box. It may be because the inside of the switchbox for the pump/filter/UV controls have gotten wet given the more or less constant rain over the last few weeks. The time it did work was when I installed the new pump during a sunny period. So, he advised to wait another day or so to see if the insides dry up and to test it again. Problem is is that it is raining now even as I type so there's no way I can open the panel to disconnect the UV (incase it's the UV at fault) nor can I open the panel to let it "breathe" and dry out any moisture.
Having found 3 distressed fish yesterday, I could only see one dead fish today. Incidentally 2 of the fish yesterday seemed perkier in the tub, so I'm not sure how indicative of anything that is?
Time for more research til the weather gets better I guess!
Thanks again for the advice and will update when I have any news!
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hi all
little update. I've managed to fit in a new pump and after a lot of rewiring it works!
The fish seem a bit happier, move active but sometimes they still hang near the surface. They are still eating so I guess that's a good sign. No more floating fish *fingers crossed* so far. I have noticed groups of them diving to the bottom of the pond now and again, which I've never seen before.
P.H and Ammonia tests are the same so no changes. For now all seems ok.
Thanks a lot for all the advice and info. I'll do some more research so I can improve the water so avoid more issues in the future!
little update. I've managed to fit in a new pump and after a lot of rewiring it works!
The fish seem a bit happier, move active but sometimes they still hang near the surface. They are still eating so I guess that's a good sign. No more floating fish *fingers crossed* so far. I have noticed groups of them diving to the bottom of the pond now and again, which I've never seen before.
P.H and Ammonia tests are the same so no changes. For now all seems ok.
Thanks a lot for all the advice and info. I'll do some more research so I can improve the water so avoid more issues in the future!
Mmathis
TurtleMommy
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Keep us posted!Hi all!
Just a little update
Since the concerns a few weeks ago I've not found any other dead or distressed fish *fingers crossed*
Seems that replacing the pump has helped somewhat. A few of the babies are changing colours now so that's nice to see they are still a bit on the small side but are growing a little each time I come back. Can't wait til they get much bigger so they can stop playing in the filter system and stop getting stuck in the vortex *roll eyes* Every time I come home, or in some cases even overnight, I see some little fish in the vortex and I have to fish them out and put them back in the pond haha!
Just a little update
Since the concerns a few weeks ago I've not found any other dead or distressed fish *fingers crossed*
Seems that replacing the pump has helped somewhat. A few of the babies are changing colours now so that's nice to see
they are still a bit on the small side but are growing a little each time I come back. Can't wait til they get much bigger so they can stop playing in the filter system and stop getting stuck in the vortex *roll eyes* Every time I come home, or in some cases even overnight, I see some little fish in the vortex and I have to fish them out and put them back in the pond haha!
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Fantastic! glad your fish are doing better!
Mmathis
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Great news! Thanks for the update!
You also have a lower fish load which helps a lot.
Hi I've justs found this site by Google, can you help. I've just lost a ghost koi a few days a go and now I have another goldfish at the top of the surface, it's literally leaning on the side of the pond. I don't think it will survive but I'm at a loss to what to do. It's not a big pond a round stone laundry bowl about 3 and a half feet deep and that high as well. The fish have been in there for years with no problems up until now.
HARO
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How many fish, how big? And do you ever test your water parameters? Have you been feeding them in the cool weather? It's hard to say without more information.
John
John