Sick fish..please help!

[richter]

first off thank you to anyone reading.. I hope you can help me! I know I might catch some flack, but keep in mind I just dug this pond a month ago and was hoping to keep it minimal, cheap, and get some enjoyment out of it before the seasons over...now since last 2 days I've noticed at least 6 out of 9 fish are flashing

Water quality (according to local fish store, 8/29)
* Ammonia Level (pond) 0
* Nitrite Level (pond) 0
* Salinity (pond) 2
* Ammonia Level (tap water) ?
* Nitrite Level (tap water) ?
* Ph Level, pond (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine) "high, but safe" "my goldies will love this high PH" ; taken in late morning
* Ph Level, tap water (If possible, KH, GH and chlorine) ?
* Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? local fish store, drops

Other useful information:
* Water temperature? ? (New York)
* Pond size and how long has it been running? 300 gallons- almost 1 month- 8/3
* What is the name and size of the filter(s)? submersible pondmaster (gravel then carbon and foam layer)
* How often do you change the water and how much? have not done a water change
* How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? no water change yet..
* How many fish in the pond and their type? 3x 2-3" koi, 6x 3-4" mixed goldfish
* What kind of water additives or conditioners have you used? none
* What do you feed your fish and how often? koi and goldfish pellets, max growth
* Any new fish added to the pond recently? 3x koi and 3x goldfish added 2 weeks ago
* Any medications added to the pond? none
* List entire medication/treatment history for fish and pond. light salt (3 cups on 8/28, 1.5 cup on 8/29)
* Any unusual findings on the fish? pictured
* Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? started flashing 8/27

------------------------Here's my story---------------

8/2- Dug pond and filled with water
8/5- Added pump, bell fountain, plants, 3x mixed goldfish, 3-4"
--all seemed good, clear water, fish eating, etc
8/18- Added a couple more plants + 3x 2-3" koi, 3x 3-4" mixed goldfish, 1x 5-6" wakin goldfish (he was given free)
--still seemed good, fish eating
8/19- Water became very murky, I suspected it to be algae bloom from the overload of fish, read that it should clear itself up on its own. fish seemed healthy and plants thriving
8/21- the large wakin goldfish jumped to his death. water was still murky and he jumped by a section of the pond that was pretty high. i wasnt sure if it was an accident as he jumped for food or because of the water. now im sure it was because of the water
8/24- the water cleared up tremendously. fish seemed OK. they would eat, but I did notice that after eating they would tend to hang around at the bottom... but then they would seem fine
8/28- (ok, not smart here) I ordered some more plants off ebay(trying to be cheap), to help clear the water up. instead of giving them a salt bath or quarantining them, I added water hyacinth, anacharis, and frogbit, all from 3 different people, to the pond at the same time
8/28- Later in the day I noticed for the first time my koi were flashing/rubbing against the submersible filter. they were also swimming/darting. is it possible parasites were on the new plants and they got infected within a few hours? Or was this an issue building up and the plants had nothing to do with it?
8/28- Went to my local pet store and was advised to use salt; used 3 cups of salt at night. also noticed my goldfish flashing (i cant say for sure, but it seems that the original 3 goldfish are not flashing, only the ones I added on 8/18)
8/29- had my water tested at local pet store, tested OK according to them. added 1.5 cups salt. thought they were flashing less but maybe just in my head. definitely still flashing. ate normal, once a day

--see attached picture of 1 of the goldfish added on 8/18. I honestly can't tell if the red spot is coloring, or did he scrape off his scales and its bleeding, or is it something worse?
is he actually missing majority of his scales? his purple gill ive read to be ammonia burn. if he gets burned does it heal back normal or? i understand my fish may have been burned 8/18-8/24. im a bit confused. his other side looks a bit better.

i can try to take more pictures tomorrow unfortunately I only have a crappy cell phone camera

Looking for some advice here, I would feel terrible if my fish are in such pain, but they seem to be fairly fine. but i guess i wouldnt know until its too late?? I thought they were fine until I noticed the flashing, which I thought was from parasites on the new plants. then i noticed this white guy had that red mark and was flashing, so I netted him and took the pic

If advised I can pickup PraziPro(for aquarium, i dont know if theres a difference other than treatable gallons) , Or I can order something online. I didnt want to spend $ but it looks like I have no choice!
Was hoping to have a healthy pond with surviving fish through the winter so I can enjoy it all of next season.

Thanks for reading... and I hope someone can help

 

[JohnHuff]

Welcome to the forum! Hope we can help.

First, I would suggest an immediate 20% water change daily for a few days and no food for the same amount of time. What are your daily temperatures right now? If your temps are 55F or so, it's too cold for them to eat.

And secondly, I think for the size of the pond you have, that's rather a lot of fish. Other forum members may offer some other suggestions.

 

[Mmathis]

Hi, and welcome!

I agree with JohnHuff that it sounds like you have too many fish for that size pond. Actually, my guess would be too many fish and adding them too fast. Even with the plants helping, your biological filtration [the good bacteria] either hasn't had time to mature, and/or isn't able to keep up with the number of fish.

Yes, to water changes, and be sure you are using a de-chlorinator.

Stop feeding them for now -- over feeding contributes to ammonia build-up.

No to adding any medications, and stop adding the salt. Most of us only use salt as a treatment [a dip or bath] where a fish is pulled and put in temporary salt solution.

I would recommend that you purchase your own testing kit -- liquid/drops, preferred. Not that the store isn't accurate, but not only will you have your results a lot faster, but you will be learning about testing and the connection between the results and what's going on with your fish.

At this point, asking if you quarantined your newest fish would serve no purpose -- you're learning, and that will come. But read up on quarantining, and please consider doing this with any new fish you add. In fact, if you have a tub or some other large container, it might be a good idea to pull the fish that are acting different and isolating them just in case there is a parasite or disease. And getting some of the fish out of the main pond for a little while might help the water quality there, too.

I don't recall if you said you had any aeration, such as from an air pump. That is another thing that might help.

Keep us posted!

P.S. -- Thank you for posting your pond info and water parameters!

 

[richter]

Thanks for your responses!

I will try a water change tomorrow, and stop feeding them. Should I bucket out 20%, then add de-chlorinator (i will have to pick this up at the store in the morning), then slow trickle/spray water in from my hose? I will pick up a thermometer when I get the dechlorinator, is there anything else you'd recommend I purchase?

I had a feeling about the number of fish, but now I feel like I'm stuck with them. I was kind of pressured into adding more fish, but I've had about this many fish into a same size pond years ago and it was fine. Although I could probably benefit from a better filter.

My local fish store has a full test kit for $120 ! I'm not trying to drop that kind of money. Would one of the following test kits suffice?

http://www.amazon.com/PondCare-Mast...377845038&sr=8-1&keywords=pond+water+test+kit
http://www.amazon.com/API-Freshwate...377845038&sr=8-6&keywords=pond+water+test+kit


This time I learned my lesson on quarantining, for sure. Hopefully by next spring I will have more money so I can take this hobby a bit more seriously. Dont have anything laying around and don't have the resources now to setup a tank(tub, pump, etc)

I have a pump/bell fountain that provides pretty good aeration I think. I was thinking I should get an air pump to help in the winter though..and that it couldnt hurt to get it now.. any recommendations?


I've attached a picture of my pond so you have an idea...this is before I added more hyacinths, frogbit, and anacharis.
thanks!

 

[Mmathis]

$120 for a test kit? Mine cost under $25 at PETSMART.

Another thing I just thought of..... How deep is your pond? You might have problems with water freezing over the winter.

 

[capewind]

Welcome, and sorry to hear you are already having problems. Not much to add that hasnt already been said ...

While it may not be your problem at the moment, you definately have wayyy too many fish and it WILL be a problem in time. Either they will die, you will have issues keeping good water quality, or you will be adding a lot more filtration. At 300 gallons, with a decent filtration set up, you really dont want to have more then SIX misc GOLDFISH, or if a smaller species of fish, can go a bit higher ... Your goldies are just babies ... My ADULT gold fish (mixed breeds) range 6" (a year old and still growing) to 12+" (8-10 yrs old). Most of them are around 6-8 years old, havent grown in a few years, and are 8-10" in size. While small NOW, you really need to plan at the time of purchase for their ADULT sizes ...

Which brings us to your koi babies ... again, NOW, they are tiny guys, maybe 3-6 months old. Let me give you a visual. Being in NY, I suspect you have some experience with firewood. Cord wood is usually cut to 16-18" lengths. Take 2-3 logs, and set them in your bathtub. Average bathtub holds about 200 gallons of water. This is about what your koi would look like in 3-4 years, IF they live that long ... Do YOU think it is fair to ask them to live in such a small area for their size? Would YOU get stressed living in such a tight area? Keep in mind, with stress comes lower tolerances to illness ...

Please do NOT take offense, as I am NOT calling your pond a bathtub, but it is hard to see what is in the ground, verses comparing something you would be very familar with. At one time or another, most folks started out with fish tanks and small ponds like what you built. They can be just as enjoyable, and beautiful, as massive ponds beyond what most will ever build.

I personally have the bad habit of keeping too many fish for my pond size. My HUSBAND'S solution is to stay ahead of me, with planning HIS filtration, AND building MORE PONDS. He finally got MY fish out of his 2500 gallon bog so he can finish adding gravel and plants to it, so I am back down to a main pond about 6400-6500 gallons, and just moved baby fish into a new 4500 gallon pond (for HIS lilies). Both of these ponds are "extras" since he hasnt gotten to the area of yard where HIS pond (much larger) is going ...

The other issue is NY generally has harsh winters. Do you plan to add a heater, or bring the fish inside?

 

[Mmathis]

Which brings us to your koi babies ... again, NOW, they are tiny guys, maybe 3-6 months old. Let me give you a visual. Being in NY, I suspect you have some experience with firewood. Cord wood is usually cut to 16-18" lengths. Take 2-3 logs, and set them in your bathtub. Average bathtub holds about 200 gallons of water. This is about what your koi would look like in 3-4 years,

I love "visuals," and that is a good one!

 

[capewind]

I love "visuals," and that is a good one!

Glad you like it It is hard to imagine cute 2-4" koi as a 2+' pet ... I get so annoyed that unsuspecting folks buy koi, having no idea of how much room they need as the fish grow. I dont blame the novices, but the people SELLING the koi. There are a lot of pretty fish that can happily live in small ponds. I am a firm believer that the first koi needs at least 1000 gallons of water, but who really knows how much water 1000 gallons is as a hole in the ground? The average 4-6 person hot tub only holds 700-800 gallons of water. Visuals of common items help.

 

[richter]

thanks for all the feedback...I guess what I didn't realize was that the koi will keep growing, even in a small pond... or will suffer. I had the impression that they wouldn't outgrow their surroundings, like goldfish. Anyway I do plan on finishing a bigger pond for Spring 2014, 2000-2500 gallons.... So hopefully I will survive the winter and then I can transplant the koi into my new bigger pond.

I got caught up at work today so I wasn't able to do the water change.. I will do this tomorrow. I was able to stop by a new aquarium store on the way home from work, got the API full testing kit for $30, a $5 digital thermometer, and $15 worth of Seachem Prime for ponds.

Here are my levels taken at 7pm tonight:

pH- 8.4
ammonia- 0
nitrite- .25ppm
nitrate-10pm
temp- 74º

I did still notice some flashing, but the koi in particular seem to be doing better. They all seem to flash on the same part, the plastic handle of my submersible filter. Now the gold goldfish are the ones flashing. The fish seemed happy and were looking for food from me which I did not provide, but they were actively scavenging and swimming.

Plan is tomorrow to drain 25%, add prime for 75 gallons, then add water from the hose. plants are doing well. I'll be able to spend more time by the pond tomorrow and I'll take readings in the morning.

thanks everyone, things are looking up I think !

 

[capewind]

So happy to hear you are planning a larger pond next year. As long as you address the temp concerns for the winter, and dont buy more fish, they wont outgrow what they have now before spring

I do however want to warn you that NEXT YEAR your baby goldfish will start breeding, so think twice in the spring about buying any more goldfish then too! Hubby did a 2000 gallon pond install for a client in May ... they had 10 adult goldfish who had been living in a pond about 500 gallons ... They really wanted more fish a week or two after getting the new pond in, and their fish moved ... I gave them 2 toung comets (different from their fish) and 2 young koi ... promised them 2 more really pretty koi when the babies we are growing out get larger, if they didnt get anymore fish THIS YEAR ... Well was last over there a week ago, and they now have about 1000 (literally) 1" goldfish babies too now ... Couldnt help but laugh. Their goldfish are very happy with their new home (our comets are still too young to breed) ...

I wouldnt be too concerned with a lot of water changes, but would investigate possible parasites for the flashing.

 

[Dave 54]

Personally call this your first ever sortie into fish keeping sell everything up and plan a propper pond you obviously didnt do any homework before you went out to buy your pond .
As such it doesnt have a filter it is far to shallow for you to over winter and your fish will I'm affraid die from the cold .
Then next year plan your pond via the website I'm sure many of us would be more than willing to help you build the next one.
It wants to be 1,000 US gallons + ................
It needs to be 4-5ft deep.
It needs a filter that you can call a filter.
You'll need a UV-C.
You'll need a skimmer.
Last but not least a descent QT fasility that has all of the above .
Also Please buy yourself this book The Interpet Manuel of koi Health Author's Keith Holmes. Tony Pitham.ISBN 1842860992 the reason I have suggested you start with this book is that it covers everything a novice koi Keeper needs to understand , it also brings you into the subject of koi/fish health mstters and health Issues you'll need to know to keep your fish healthy .
The more you study up on this the better for both you and the fish.
Please dont think me nasty for aying all these things to you because I'm not being nasty , I've been where you are, we all have and its thanx to reading up on things that weve now been keeping for 27 years.

rgrds

Dave

 

[richter]

thanks Dave actually I've had a pond before at this depth that did survive the winter, and was fine. I know all these things you listed however this was supposed to just be a cheap end of summer project. plenty of people have ponds with the same specs I do, otherwise they wouldnt sell what I purchased. yes i made some mistakes and maybe I didn't do the right thing but at the end of the day its just a small backyard pond. i will certainly do my best to plan a better pond for 2014

 

[JohnHuff]

I'm going to have to disagree with Dave54. You don't need to have all that to have a pond. My pond is 800g, about 2.5ft deep at it's deepest. The pond ices over in the winter but the fish survive. Actually, I'm thinking of putting a heater in for the first time ever. I don't have a QT facility and the pond survived with a really crappy filter before I started learning about them and making my own. The point is to have a pond that fits your needs. My pond came with my house and though it isn't the best, it will work.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm glad you did disagree John because sometimes you get lucky and the fish survive sometimes it doesnt and they die.
However as you said you started to learn about things, next the heater is going in which is spot on my friend.
I was lucky I was thrown in at the deepend so to speak but I had two real good mentors who saw me through the first winter and made sure everything was running correctly and that the suggestion of policarbonate sheeting we got through ok but put a heater on for the next winter ..

rgrds

Dave