Sick goldfish -- what am I missing?

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
I noticed one of the goldfish looked odd -- it showed some characteristics that I saw in the last fish I lost. But if I hadn't noticed the eyes on this one, I wouldn't have had reason to bring it in and scrape it. Otherwise, the fish seemed "normal," probably in the earlier stages of whatever happened to my last fish......?

Water test:
ammonia -- 0
nitrites -- 0
nitrates -- 0
pH -- 8.2 (WNL)
KH -- 126
DO -- >8
water temp. 75.2 F

If this isn't something "parasitic" in nature, could it be bacterial? And if so.......

  • eyes -- not pop-eyed, but corneas were enlarged, or else a jelly-like coating on the eyes which is what it looked like [see pic]
  • eyes -- aimed slightly downward (pictures don't do this justice)
  • eyes -- not opaque, but looks like my cat's "cataract" eye
  • was very easy to catch and didn't fight when handled
  • seemed to very slightly turn to its side (noticed after I brought it in)
  • nothing [other than the eyes] was obvious on exam -- gills dark pink, good movement
  • no flashing
  • no fin clamping
  • nothing obvious on gross micro exam -- took 2 scrapes
  • but, unsure of something seen on slide -- when I viewed the slide, there was what I suppose was "Brownian" movement -- but when I zoomed in (with my camera), I saw more kinds of movement, and now I'm not sure what I was seeing -- there is some movement that might be from the camera lens as it seemed to follow with the camera -- see YouTube video [sorry for the video of a video.....]
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg



 
Ad

Advertisements

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
And what is the best thing I can be doing for the fish for the time being? Right now it's in a aerated container and I have added salt to the water.
 

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
The only thing I've found that references eye issues (such as bulging eyes) is Corneybacterium. Now, when I read about such diseases......the first thing they say.......poor water quality, over crowding. That upsets me to read as I don't consider that my pond is either. So, what are you supposed to do?

My water parameters are consistently WNL. If anything, the pond is over-filtered. I do water changes; I net the leaves & debris [yes, I know there are some who don't agree with either of those....]; I keep the filters clean; I don't add anything in the way of chemicals [except de-chlor, and now Koi Clay]; I have approx.110 fish-inches in 2500 gallons.......
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1,316
Reaction score
744
Location
Iowa
Hardiness Zone
5a
Country
United States
Good luck I hope you get this figured out and this guy gets better.
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
8,560
Reaction score
9,239
Location
Northern IL
A brief check of a few sources does seem to point to a bacterial infection. Not terribly helpful I know, but it seems you are on the right track.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,796
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
I noticed one of the goldfish looked odd -- it showed some characteristics that I saw in the last fish I lost. But if I hadn't noticed the eyes on this one, I wouldn't have had reason to bring it in and scrape it. Otherwise, the fish seemed "normal," probably in the earlier stages of whatever happened to my last fish......?

Water test:
ammonia -- 0
nitrites -- 0
nitrates -- 0
pH -- 8.2 (WNL)
KH -- 126
DO -- >8
water temp. 75.2 F

If this isn't something "parasitic" in nature, could it be bacterial? And if so.......

  • eyes -- not pop-eyed, but corneas were enlarged, or else a jelly-like coating on the eyes which is what it looked like [see pic]
  • eyes -- aimed slightly downward (pictures don't do this justice)
  • eyes -- not opaque, but looks like my cat's "cataract" eye
  • was very easy to catch and didn't fight when handled
  • seemed to very slightly turn to its side (noticed after I brought it in)
  • nothing [other than the eyes] was obvious on exam -- gills dark pink, good movement
  • no flashing
  • no fin clamping
  • nothing obvious on gross micro exam -- took 2 scrapes
  • but, unsure of something seen on slide -- when I viewed the slide, there was what I suppose was "Brownian" movement -- but when I zoomed in (with my camera), I saw more kinds of movement, and now I'm not sure what I was seeing -- there is some movement that might be from the camera lens as it seemed to follow with the camera -- see YouTube video [sorry for the video of a video.....]
View attachment 86174 View attachment 86175 View attachment 86176


Firstly can we ask why you have ruked out popeye when your fish can already be suffering from it
A fish koi or goldfish does not need to have bugging out eyes to be suffering from popeye Maggie.
Looking closely at your golffishes eyes you could say that they are slightly pronounced , so one cannot for the moment eule it out .
So you have to look at the causes of popeye first and formost.
To start with its not usually highly contagious and one goldfish at a time may present with these conditions at a time in your pond.
Its normally underlying conditions that dictate if the condition will prove conagious are not so to speak
So what if anything could be causing this , it may be stress related the most common triiger to this being water quality isues which as such you've ruled out .
So think of any changes that may have occured recently this could because you have added new fish , you may find that this is caused at certain times of the year and may coincide with seasonal changes to water temprature.
Next has the fish los its appitite at all , does the fish show any sign of bloating or are scales begining to lift on your goldfish's body . if so this may well point to a bacterial or viral infection of your goldfish .
Internally changes may be taking shape and this could be because of anything i;e from organ failure or it may even be a tumour .
Ok now as long as these are internal it may be difficult to identify exactly what is going on here but as long as they dont not result in in the onset of a more serious disorder or bacterial problem or even devlope dropsy then the condition may still clear up of its own accord .
Simple good pond and filter husbandry should help prevent popeye in all its forms ,
Seeing as popeye isnt generally contagious theres really no need to seperate off the affected fish indeed having the company of its pond mate may even help in the fish recovering much faster in their own enviroment however I may be really wide of the mark concentrating on popeye You are our etes on the ground.
Does your microscope happen to have an occular Maggie , if so try using it , your PC can gain a greater megnification than your camera but thats only if you have one .
But if I'm correct and it is popeye then often simple things such as water changes will normally cure your problem by curing it itself .
Once this and other causes such as poor diet have been ruled out , it may then be neccessary to treat the pond with a good off the shelf antibacterial as a bacterial problem may be the culprit behind this .
I would however recomend that if a bacteriacyde need be used then you ask the the advice of the fish professionals at the places you bought your fish from....
i:e this would be what dose should be used prior to your administration ,even how it should be administered.
In non advanced or localised cases you could be given eye drops to treat your fish with .
But like I said I may well be wide of the mark here

Dave
 

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
Please, don't anyone take this wrong -- I'm not trying to argue or disprove anything Dave or anyone else has to say. I'm only trying to learn, and if this was a classroom setting, I/we would all be able to ask questions, to clarify, and to validate things we see. That's what I'm trying to accomplish here. I want to LEARN, and as we all know, there is a lot more to learn than what we find on the internet....

Call this "taking the fish to the doctor for a health check-up." We all know how doctors ask all those [annoying] questions (that's an inside joke -- I'm married to a physician, not to mention that I teach the MEDICINE MB for Boy Scouts :rolleyes:) as well as do a physical exam. And when the cats go to the vet with a problem, I try to anticipate what they'll ask so I can take notice beforehand.

Firstly can we ask why you have ruked out popeye when your fish can already be suffering from it
A fish koi or goldfish does not need to have bugging out eyes to be suffering from popeye Maggie.
Looking closely at your golffishes eyes you could say that they are slightly pronounced , so one cannot for the moment eule it out .


Dave
I guess my definition of "pop eye," and what I'm seeing in this fish (and the one before that died) are not the same. Soooooo, here's where I'm coming from: To me, as a medically-trained person, "pop-eye," or exophthalmia is an enlargement/protrusion of the eyeball. This fish doesn't really have that. Technically, it has exlarged corneas. In a brief Google search, I ran across this mention of "megalocornea," and the way this author differentiates "megalocornea" from "pop-eye." Granted, this was from an old book, but it does point this out. I just pulled this up because it did mention it -- the article was about something else, like calcium deficiency.
image.jpg

image.jpg


But, for now, let's call it "pop-eye." Apples & oranges!

But that's not all that's going on with this little guy, and if his problems progress like the last fish, then he's going to start listing to port [or starboard] -- he's already a little "unsteady." From there, the other fish went on to develop "dropsy," though it was mild [more just the pineconing than any bloating]. And from there, the other fish went downhill untill I brought out the clove oil.

And by unsteady, it's like someone who's had a little too much happy juice.....

Is he eating? Don't know 'cause I haven't fed him, but he acts hungry and responds when I approach.

He's listless, but responds to stimuli, and does swim around spontaneously.

His repirations appear normal with normal looking gill movement -- I haven't done more than a quick peak at the gills, however.

On several searches for information about eye problems, Corneybacteriosis in fish has come up several times -- NOT saying this is what he has, though. They mentioned head enlargement as an occompaning symptom. But I don't know if they meant intercranial pressure or an actual, visible enlargement of the head. Intercranial pressure would be the cause of the "pop-eye" symptom. Anyway, I went through my pics looking for an old shot of this same fish to use as a comparison. These are about 14 months apart [and the best one I could find from back then]. The only thing I notice is a little more bulging over the gill cover, but that could be normal for growth.

image.jpg


I've established good water quality, which has been consistent. I have plenty of aeration via spitters, filter outputs, and air stones. I recently bought a test kit for disolved oxygen -- showing DO as >8 [somewhere between 8 & 12].

I do water changes and keep my filters clean and flushed, as well as net crud off the bottom [no BD].

No new fish since mid-April of this year. They were QT'd for just over 4 weeks. I didn't scrape them, but they didn't show any obvious problems. They came from RainGarden in Hawaii. The last fish that died was one of these.

No environmental stressors [that I'm aware of] except 1) frequent thunderstorm during the Spring, and 2) elevated water temp [>90F] for about a week until I got shade up.

No alcohol, caffeine, or nicotine use [that I'm aware of -- but I can't say what they do at night.....]

Have lost about 1/2 dozen fish since the spring thunderstorms [using that as a reference-in-time]. These deaths were spread out, with usually about a month in between. Some were found dead, but a few were still alive. The ones I was able to scrape showed nothing under the scope. Except for the last one [a month ago], I wasn't able to observe anything unusual -- I've already mentioned similarities with the current sick fish.

Of the fish that have died, they varied in size & age. And, there have been a few fish that have mysteriously disappeared....never accounted for.....so no idea if they died or something got them. I would just notice that this or that fish wasn't there anymore...... I want to say that some of those did disappear before I started actually finding the dead/dying fish.

And @Dave 54 I answered about the "ocular" in a PM, but that might be something that would interest others on here.

SORRY THIS IS SO DARN LONG :yawn:, but had a lot to say..... Whew! :wacky:
 

Attachments

Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
2,189
Reaction score
1,325
Location
NC, US
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United States
Hi TM,
so sorry you've been dealing with sick fish lately. Sorry I couldnt help. But then I have a little thought, could it be that the turtle is carrying something that could cause the sickness to the fish? tell me if i'm wrong but your bog is where the turtle bog is and the water runs back to the pond? I hope this has nothing to do with it. I just want to cover all the base.
 

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
Hi TM,
so sorry you've been dealing with sick fish lately. Sorry I couldnt help. But then I have a little thought, could it be that the turtle is carrying something that could cause the sickness to the fish? tell me if i'm wrong but your bog is where the turtle bog is and the water runs back to the pond? I hope this has nothing to do with it. I just want to cover all the base.
I have thought of that. Believe me, I have thought of that! I have checked with a friend who is working on her degree (Masters?) in herpatology, and she says probably not. That anything transmittable back & forth either isn't anything pathogenic to the other, or that it would be passed in a state that most likely wouldn't be harmful [for example, certain nematodes that have to have a specific host]. Plus, the turts have been sharing the same water since the day the pond went up. Not to mention that turtles and fish share resources in the wild, as well. And to be sure about the internal parasite issue, when we took one of the cats to see our new vet last week, I was able to get a nice, fresh turtle turd. They did a fecal float, and it was negative. The vet wasn't concerned about any cross-infective agents, either. Now, that's not to say it isn't possible, just not probable. I think -- if I ever find out what's going on -- it will depend on WHAT we discover, then can look further into a herp-connection. But thank you for bringing that forward! All bases do have to be covered!
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
2,189
Reaction score
1,325
Location
NC, US
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United States
I have thought of that. Believe me, I have thought of that! I have checked with a friend who is working on her degree (Masters?) in herpatology, and she says probably not. That anything transmittable back & forth either isn't anything pathogenic to the other, or that it would be passed in a state that most likely wouldn't be harmful [for example, certain nematodes that have to have a specific host]. Plus, the turts have been sharing the same water since the day the pond went up. Not to mention that turtles and fish share resources in the wild, as well. And to be sure about the internal parasite issue, when we took one of the cats to see our new vet last week, I was able to get a nice, fresh turtle turd. They did a fecal float, and it was negative. The vet wasn't concerned about any cross-infective agents, either. Now, that's not to say it isn't possible, just not probable. I think -- if I ever find out what's going on -- it will depend on WHAT we discover, then can look further into a herp-connection. But thank you for bringing that forward! All bases do have to be covered!
I'm glad to hear!!!

"fecal float" that made me LOL :)
 

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
I'm glad to hear!!!

"fecal float" that made me LOL :)
That's what it's called, because they mix the stool with some liquid then lay a microscope slide (or cover slip) on top of the liquid for a few minutes. During that time, any parasite eggs will "float" upward and stick to the slide. When time's up, they view the slide under the scope. Do you have any 4-legged babies? Next time they go to the vet for their yearly exam, ask if you can look at the slide, since a "float" is usually a standard test they do.
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
3,205
Reaction score
2,183
Location
North East Ohio-Zone 5
Country
United States
So sorry you are still having trouble with your fish Maggie

This may have nothing to do with any problems your having with this fish but I think the fish looks much thinner now than it was a year ago.
 

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
While I wait around to decide what's going on......

The fish seems to have perked up considerably! I hope this is a good sign. I haven't taken a really good look at it today, like a close-up, examination type look but will do that soon. So I can't say what the eyes are looking like.....

The question was asked if it had an appetite, but I hadn't tried to feed it. I went ahead and sprinkled a few food flakes on the water and gave my "tapping" signal for food. The fish suddenly became alert and started eating, then looked for more [which I didn't give it].

Maybe all it needed was a couple of days in some salt water. I hope I'm not rejoicing too soon.
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
3,205
Reaction score
2,183
Location
North East Ohio-Zone 5
Country
United States
Sorry for asking this as I think you already mentioned it but I can't find it right now.

Is he is quarantine with some salt? If so, What level salt are you using? Just curious.....
 
Ad

Advertisements

Mmathis

TurtleMommy
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
9,806
Reaction score
5,628
Location
NW Louisiana -- zone 8b
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
Yes, but I have in inside in a 5 gal. bucket with an air stone. I've been changing the water out (switching him to a different bucket) about every 12 hours. Not sure of the salt concentration, but it's about or just under 1 TBSP per the bucket-full.
 

mrsclem

mrsclem
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
3,189
Reaction score
2,768
Location
st. mary's county, md.
Hardiness Zone
7A
Country
United States
TM- sorry you are losing fish. I know how frustrated you must be after dealing with my electrical problems. You say he seems like hes ? pretty sure you don't as you are on top of things but sometimes things get overlooked. Have you had fish loses like this before or did this start this year? What's changed? Lost my 30+" white longfin koi after the issue with ph & possible low O2 levels so know hat you are going thru. Hopefully with everybodies help you will figure this out.
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
3,205
Reaction score
2,183
Location
North East Ohio-Zone 5
Country
United States
Yes, but I have in inside in a 5 gal. bucket with an air stone. I've been changing the water out (switching him to a different bucket) about every 12 hours. Not sure of the salt concentration, but it's about or just under 1 TBSP per the bucket-full.
That sounds good to me and if he seems to be improving that is great! And remember a fish who is still interested in eating is a good thing (y)
 
Ad

Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Similar Threads

Very Sick Koi 29
Help! Sick Bubble Eyed Goldfish :( 6
Still dealing with sick goldfish 5
Sick Shubunkin Goldfish 6
Sick goldfish 2
I think my fantail goldfish is sick! 1
Sick Goldfish 1
Help my goldfish is sick! 33

Top