Simple improvement to the Skippy...

[JohnHuff]

It appears from casual reading of the forum that a lot of ponders are building Skippies. I guess the appeal of the Skippy is that it's easy and fun to build. I know because I built a mini-one for fun.

But I think there's room for improvement there. Two things are needed for beneficial bacteria to work well: water flow (to bring nutrients for the bacteria to work on) and oxygen (for the chemical reactions) and I feel that scrubber pads are possibly the worst media to use.

To me, scrubber pads, sponges, or any other fibrous material are made to trap and hold solids. No way that they're going to stay dirt free and allow water to flow through them after some time. Once they get clogged up water is going to flow around the pads. So why don't people use moving media like Kaldnes or bioballs? Just fill the container up with moving media instead of pads and you've solved the first problem of the media clogging up.

Oxygen: Some say that most oxygen exchange is done at the surface but oxygen is fairly easy to add. One, add a Venturi valve, which will work if the water pressure is strong enough, or simply add a cheap air pump. Either way, doing this will not only add oxygen but will have the additional benefit of agitating the media and preventing or delaying the media from clogging up.

So my question is, why aren't people doing this or doing it more?

 

[capewind]

John, I am still learning more about how filters work, to be the best they can be, so you have my attention...

Just want to throw out some observations to you from our filters ...

On the main pond, we have a traditional filter (plus bog and other things) ... It's a Laguna Filter Falls 5000 ... One chamber had bioballs ... I have to say they were a pain in the arse to clean (small plant roots tangle in them). We removed them and replaced that chamber with pillow stuffing (same principle as quilt batting) ...

We have two "modified" Skippies ... I say modified as they are not identicle to what you find on the skippy site, but other members here do have similar .. the primary difference is the drain to be able to drain the muck out of it ...

When hubby did the mini one in the basement, I didnt pay much attention to it, as it is in the basement (out of sight, out of mind), but the one outside, I see every day. It isnt 100% finished, but operational (grates are not in it) ... I noticed with no cover, and in full sun, the pads we cut up do gunk up with algae, plus whatever it pulls from the baby pond, but it is EASY to clean ... It has the bottom drain valve, so you crack it open, and all the muck from the bottom flows out ... as it is flowing, if you splash the pads about a bit (maybe a whole minute) all the gunk falls out, and goes out the drain too ...

 

[koiguy1969]

SPONGES?...i never heard of anyone using sponges. i've been using my "scrubbies" for 6 years. still havent had an issue with clogging. of course, as should be done, with any filtration system.i use prefilters.. a mechanical filter before my pump. my pump sets right under my falls. and draws thru my prefilter,plumbed with 1&1/4" hose at the other end of pond.(3 pads, a layer of screen, and 2 layers of felt) my water is pretty darn clean, mechanically before it hits my "skippy style" bio filter. i have yet to put any real effort into cleaning the pads. and they are used 24/7/365 between my outdoor pond and basement wintering pond. my basent pond is drawn thru a skimmer prefilter thats drawn thru a pad, pillow stuffing then egg crate foam... the water is crystal clear and virtually particle free entering the "skippy style". i also haveflush valves. and yes i use venturies.
but even with the venturies, or an aerator, ...almost all of the oxygenation takes place at the waters surface. as the bubble break the surface tension.

 

[sissy]

I guess I still love my lava rock and best thing i did was add a mini pump to the bottom of my filter .Makes it easier to clean ,just plug the pupm in and suck out the stuff through the hose attached to it and let it run out on the lawn .I can do my water change then also .I had bio balls and if not contained in a bag they floated and would get stuck in the outlets and I grow plants in my filters and same thing roots would get knotted in them .I still have to trim the roots .So far this summer i have not cleaned my filters at all ,plants do a great job of that .I did turn on my filter pump for a few seconds to see after reading this and water was clear no muck yet .

 

[koiguy1969]

sissy... A 1&1/2 or 2" ball valve will do a far better job of cleaning "fushing" out a filter than a "small"pump. i can run the 1000gph pump while flushing and it cant keep up with the drain rate... its that speed of the drain creating a suction that really draws out the muck. and theres nothing wrong with lava rock in my opinion. its just prone to clogging quicker than most medias. prefiltering could greatly reduce that issue!

 

[capewind]

been using my "scrubbies" for 6 years. still havent had an issue with clogging. of course, as should be done, with any filtration system.i use prefilters..

I am certainly not going to disagree with you, but I have to say FOR the scrubbies is our baby pond does not yet have a prefilter unless one wants to count the cheesey plastic cage around the HF 2150 gph pump as "something" ... and with the raw dirty water going directly to the skippy, those scrubbies are still easy to clean. The baby pond is clearly visible to its 3' depth, HOWEVER it does have a VERY slight tea color from the dying plant matter ... the UNfinished skippy is the ONLY filtration on this pond so far, and when it is flushed, the water coming out is GROSS. Even with no prefilter, those scrubbies are easy to clean off as I wrote above.

 

[crsublette]

It appears from casual reading of the forum that a lot of ponders are building Skippies. I guess the appeal of the Skippy is that it's easy and fun to build. I know because I built a mini-one for fun.

But I think there's room for improvement there. Two things are needed for beneficial bacteria to work well: water flow (to bring nutrients for the bacteria to work on) and oxygen (for the chemical reactions) and I feel that scrubber pads are possibly the worst media to use.

To me, scrubber pads, sponges, or any other fibrous material are made to trap and hold solids. No way that they're going to stay dirt free and allow water to flow through them after some time. Once they get clogged up water is going to flow around the pads. So why don't people use moving media like Kaldnes or bioballs? Just fill the container up with moving media instead of pads and you've solved the first problem of the media clogging up.

Oxygen: Some say that most oxygen exchange is done at the surface but oxygen is fairly easy to add. One, add a Venturi valve, which will work if the water pressure is strong enough, or simply add a cheap air pump. Either way, doing this will not only add oxygen but will have the additional benefit of agitating the media and preventing or delaying the media from clogging up.

1) So my question is, why aren't people doing this or doing it more?

1) So my question is, why aren't people doing this or doing it more?

Increased cost and higher complexity from "what they see and believe" comes with little gain, until ammonia and nitrite levels are measureable. Then, I bet they change their tune or just add more plants; if they lack the space for more plants, then those improvements will likely be implemented or building a different biological filter. As long as ammonia and nitrite levels are comfortably low to zero, then "meh" to the improvements. :dunno:

 

[JohnHuff]

Just coming back to this thread after an eventful morning with the other threads. Let me answer this one first:
1) How much more expensive? Is moving media that much more expensive than pads?
2) How much more complex can substituting balls for pads be? I would think that it would be easier since pads need to be cut up.

1) So my question is, why aren't people doing this or doing it more?

Increased cost and higher complexity from "what they see and believe" comes with little gain, until ammonia and nitrite levels are measureable. Then, I bet they change their tune or just add more plants; if they lack the space for more plants, then those improvements will likely be implemented or building a different biological filter. As long as ammonia and nitrite levels are comfortably low to zero, then "meh" to the improvements. :dunno:

 

[crsublette]

Just coming back to this thread after an eventful morning with the other threads. Let me answer this one first:
1) How much more expensive? Is moving media that much more expensive than pads?
2) How much more complex can substituting balls for pads be? I would think that it would be easier since pads need to be cut up.

1) How much more expensive? Is moving media that much more expensive than pads?

Well, from a good guy that I know selling K1 floating media, it goes for $115 for a 1.8 cubic foot bag, not including shipping cost.

How much would 1.8 cubic feet of pads, bought from the grocery store, cost ya?


2) How much more complex can substituting balls for pads be? I would think that it would be easier since pads need to be cut up.

Well, for that, it's just increased cost.

As for everything else, likely adding that "one more step" makes it "too complex". I might be silly by overstating it, but it is a trend and seems funny how folk can be lazy with their filtration after doing all of the back breaking work and expense with just installing the pond. I don't know... I might be overstating it... :dunno:

 

[JohnHuff]

Do you know why floating media is so expensive here? I checked it out online and it can be bought from the source at a few hundred dollars for a cubic meter. A cubic meter is 35 cu ft. I mean, it's just plastic pieces.

1) How much more expensive? Is moving media that much more expensive than pads?

Well, from a good guy that I know selling K1 floating media, it goes for $115 for a 1.8 cubic foot bag, not including shipping cost.

How much would 1.8 cubic feet of pads, bought from the grocery store, cost ya?


2) How much more complex can substituting balls for pads be? I would think that it would be easier since pads need to be cut up.

Well, for that, it's just increased cost.

As for everything else, likely adding that "one more step" makes it "too complex". I might be silly by overstating it, but it is a trend and seems funny how folk can be lazy with their filtration after doing all of the back breaking work and expense with just installing the pond. I don't know... I might be overstating it... :dunno:

 

[crsublette]

Do you know why floating media is so expensive here? I checked it out online and it can be bought from the source at a few hundred dollars for a cubic meter. A cubic meter is 35 cu ft. I mean, it's just plastic pieces.

:cheerful: I understand man... Although, they might all be handcrafted.

There's so much in this world that is more expensive than it actually should be, at least in my head. :bdaybiggrin:

 

[capewind]

I need you guys to break this down simplier for me, as I am not getting the media debate (the venturi I get) ...

The skippy on the baby pond isnt complete as I have already posted, and I dont see an issue with the media plugging up and am trying to understand the pros of the bioballs ... I dont see an issue with either for surface area, and maybe I am being too hard on my view of the bioballs given my limited experience with them ... I only know the bioballs as coming with the filterfalls, and maybe it was a design flaw on their part that they collected crap ...

I couldnt even tell you WHAT the media is called that hubby is using ... I simply know it as course filter material ... I bought 3 rolls, 24" x 1" x 54" for the 150 gallon skippy ... Hubby said it was enough to start, but hasnt grabbed more yet. For cost comparision, I can tell you I paid $18 per roll ...

 

[JohnHuff]

Cape, here's what I see:
1) Pads and stuff are static. They don't move. Things can build up on them and clog them. When they do, water no longer moves though them and therefore they lose their usefulness as media. Not only that, water moves wherever there is less resistance. Once there is a little clogging, the water will move around the whole mass of pads and the surface area of media is much decreased.
2) Floating media is dynamic. They move around, and things have no chance to clog them. Not only that, because they move around, each piece of media has a much bigger opportunity to come in contact with nutrients.

I need you guys to break this down simplier for me, as I am not getting the media debate (the venturi I get) ...

The skippy on the baby pond isnt complete as I have already posted, and I dont see an issue with the media plugging up and am trying to understand the pros of the bioballs ... I dont see an issue with either for surface area, and maybe I am being too hard on my view of the bioballs given my limited experience with them ... I only know the bioballs as coming with the filterfalls, and maybe it was a design flaw on their part that they collected crap ...

I couldnt even tell you WHAT the media is called that hubby is using ... I simply know it as course filter material ... I bought 3 rolls, 24" x 1" x 54" for the 150 gallon skippy ... Hubby said it was enough to start, but hasnt grabbed more yet. For cost comparision, I can tell you I paid $18 per roll ...

 

[Mmathis]

I'm having trouble visualizing how much a cubic foot is, I guess, if 1.8 cf of this stuff is $115! That seems pretty expensive to me. Seems like it would take over 5 cf of this stuff to even come close to filling my Skippy. I'm primarily using Matala matting in mine, some as solid sheets and some cut up. I don't recall the total cost, but seems like it was just over $100 (but I could be wrong). But I also have some BioBalls and cut up PVC pipe in there. I tossed most of the scrubbies I started with as they always just looked gunky.

The Matala is very easy to clean -- just a little giggle, so I'm happy with it. Have a Venturi, as well. Not sure I'd be willing to do a retro-fit at the cost of the above-mentioned media. Not saying it isn't better, just not sure it would be cost-effective for me.

 

[capewind]

Thanks John, that did help, but now I am scratching my head with more questions ...

1. In evaluating usable surface area, first, how do you define HOW MUCH media you need? I realize that is a loaded question and could depend on many variables, but for sake of arguement use the terms of an average fish load, and only address it from the size of the filter... In our case, using a 150 gallon stock tank ...

2. My next question regards flow rate ... I vaguely recall others talking about particle suspension time and flow rates, and the skippy is upflow ... but what if you add additional agitation to the skippy tank .. whether it be in the form of a venturi, added air pump, or top discharge water ... I may not be explaining this well ... I wanted more flow coming out of the waterfall, so hubby has a valve box ... it is set so that about 1000 gph is fed through the upflow, and the balance is plumbed to enter the skipping from the backside (opposite the water fall) at the top ... this pump will be swapped out to a 4000 gph (needs a new impeller), where 1000 gph will go through the upflow, and the 3000 gph across the top to give me more flow at the waterfall ... It also has a venturi ... Does the added flow help anything at all, besides giving me more volume at the falls?

Where I am heading with these questions is financial .. if the course media is substancially less expensive, is figuring out how much is needed, to get the same end result ... I also remember others talking about other items that would be dynamic in nature, such as cut pex tubing (hubby has done this), pvc and even hair curlers ...