Some fish problem, apparently
- Thread starter verygreen
- Start date
No, definitely not all, but all that were catched and then some.
So far I am sure I lost 4 small feeder goldfish, large butterfyl koi and large butterfly goldfish.
Still over ten koi shown up for feeding time, I cannot see any parasites on them, though it's hard to spot anyway from distance and when fish is acting skittish.
I have plans to drain the pond completely on Monday to clean out the bottom, install second skimmer, filters and uv lights. I also plan to scrape the fish at that time and inspect them for parasites and also probably hold them in a kiddy pool for at least some time while I monitor situation in the main pond. At that time I'll see if there are any dead fish at the bottom.
So far I am sure I lost 4 small feeder goldfish, large butterfyl koi and large butterfly goldfish.
Still over ten koi shown up for feeding time, I cannot see any parasites on them, though it's hard to spot anyway from distance and when fish is acting skittish.
I have plans to drain the pond completely on Monday to clean out the bottom, install second skimmer, filters and uv lights. I also plan to scrape the fish at that time and inspect them for parasites and also probably hold them in a kiddy pool for at least some time while I monitor situation in the main pond. At that time I'll see if there are any dead fish at the bottom.
I guess at this point I will assume I have some sort of flukes too (don't see anything in the microscope though I'll try on a different fish once I catch some more). The fish that I managed to catch all looked like it's breathing very frequently, spitting out food and when in the pond before I catch them, some swim near a surface at some tilt to the side - all apparently symptoms of flukes too.
So if I am catching my fish to a quarantine tank and will treat for flukes there, with two applications of PraziPro or Aqua Prazi por whatever, I imagine I still need to use these Prazi meds on the pond too (after a water change), but can I do it just once in the pond since there would be no fish at the time and I am only attacking eggs, or would I need two applications in the pond as per instructions? At $105 per application for my pond size, dumping a lot of this stuff needlessly into the pond would be expensive.
So if I am catching my fish to a quarantine tank and will treat for flukes there, with two applications of PraziPro or Aqua Prazi por whatever, I imagine I still need to use these Prazi meds on the pond too (after a water change), but can I do it just once in the pond since there would be no fish at the time and I am only attacking eggs, or would I need two applications in the pond as per instructions? At $105 per application for my pond size, dumping a lot of this stuff needlessly into the pond would be expensive.
Hm, something strange happened with the pool later today and it lost most of it's water, I got the fish out and refilled the pool, hopefully making sure whatever it was will never happen again.
I retreated water with chlorine remover, added damium and let the fish back in. A few hours later I checked on the pool and the fish was not feeling well at all, initially it floated from the bottom to the light of my flashlight(it was after dark already).
but had problems maintaining buoyancy, was turning side by side and barely moved it's tail if at all.
I caught it with a plastic container so that it's easier to observe and was not active at all.
Breathing very little, not moving the tail at all, lying on the side frequently.
Then all in a space of like 10 minutes it stopped breathing for large periods of time, periodically suddenly resuming and doing a few body movements, or sometimes even going a full lap in the container and then behaving like dead again, getting on the side and such, but not floating, staying at the bottom and even mostly maintaining the right orientation.
I also noticed there's some sort of white growth on the left side gill cover close to the gill that wast not there earlier today. Pictures of it did not turn out well, so I think it must be pretty transparent.
I am pretty much convinced it's dead now, though I let it back into the pool in case it snaps out again later. I'll probably need to throw it away tomorrow.
I wonder what was that? today when I first caught it from the pond it was very active, so I am very appalled it deteriorated this fast. Even removing three most big anchor worms did not seem to make fish feel too bad.
Yet, so far all fish that I managed to catch dies very fast after that. I wonder what is it I am doing wrong? Now I am concerned that after I catch all the rest of the fish for the cleanup of the pond, they all will very quickly die too.
I retreated water with chlorine remover, added damium and let the fish back in. A few hours later I checked on the pool and the fish was not feeling well at all, initially it floated from the bottom to the light of my flashlight(it was after dark already).
but had problems maintaining buoyancy, was turning side by side and barely moved it's tail if at all.
I caught it with a plastic container so that it's easier to observe and was not active at all.
Breathing very little, not moving the tail at all, lying on the side frequently.
Then all in a space of like 10 minutes it stopped breathing for large periods of time, periodically suddenly resuming and doing a few body movements, or sometimes even going a full lap in the container and then behaving like dead again, getting on the side and such, but not floating, staying at the bottom and even mostly maintaining the right orientation.
I also noticed there's some sort of white growth on the left side gill cover close to the gill that wast not there earlier today. Pictures of it did not turn out well, so I think it must be pretty transparent.
I am pretty much convinced it's dead now, though I let it back into the pool in case it snaps out again later. I'll probably need to throw it away tomorrow.
I wonder what was that? today when I first caught it from the pond it was very active, so I am very appalled it deteriorated this fast. Even removing three most big anchor worms did not seem to make fish feel too bad.
Yet, so far all fish that I managed to catch dies very fast after that. I wonder what is it I am doing wrong? Now I am concerned that after I catch all the rest of the fish for the cleanup of the pond, they all will very quickly die too.
Please dont get me wrong on this but your fish must be the unluckiest in the world or where your buying them from should be closed down . Argulus, Flukes, Anchor worm now a fungal complaint ok so all these can be aflicting your fish all at the same time.but its very rare that they are. "Argulus has all but been stamped out", and is an increasingly rare thing to get. Your fluke problem can be taken care of quite simply by using a topical treatment such as Bacterad for ulcers fintot and "flukes". "Anchor worm" again can be removed in the adult form by tweezers with the wound area treated with Malachite Green and propolis but you'll need to anethatize them for removal of the adult stage... "Fungus" can follow if the wound like with argulus isnt properly treated "all your fish" must be taken out and inspected treating the pond to rid it of the juvenile stages of the anchor worm Parasite "as with the argulus". When all this is done I would get the American version of the RSPCA involved to shut this fish outlet down because they seem either to be an uncaring bunch who are just in it for the money which is wrong... Or they dont have a clue what they are doing hense the ASPCA being brought in. There is only one other way you could be going wrong and its a mistake we made when we first started out in that your buying from petshops over that of a dealer As strange as it sounds to other members of the forum, all these problems can be occuring at the same time. But to tell you the truth though verygreen, it would be far easier to nuke the pond, return your fish demand your money back. Then you can find a new outlet and start again safe in the knowledge you have done all you can to stop your pond and goldfish/koi going through all this again as it must be very distressing for them to say the very least. It is also a "lesson" to you about "QTing your koi and goldfish for a month prior to them going into the pond". Do yourself a big favour and buy a book on the subject of koi and goldfish health then at least you will know just what is afflicting your fish and can take steps to correct things rgrds Dave
Must be bad luck.
It's hard to attribute contamination to any specific store, because I got fish from several sources. Yes, petsmart goldfish are probably the most likely vector, but
It's too late to return the fish too, so I am going to try to rescue the situation to the best of my abilities.
It's hard to attribute contamination to any specific store, because I got fish from several sources. Yes, petsmart goldfish are probably the most likely vector, but
It's too late to return the fish too, so I am going to try to rescue the situation to the best of my abilities.
Thats good verygreen but I would still report them if I were you.
You have also learned a very valuable lesson havent you , ad thats to QT anynew fish for a month so you may threat anything they come up with in that space of time.
This is what I mean about buying books on our hobby it would save alott of tears if you did this in the first place.
Many novices choose to ignor this advice only to pay the price at a later date when somehing like this happens.
Amazon sells some very decent books such as the interpet Manual of Fish Health at a lesser price than buying from a bookstore.
I recomend you buy this book ASAP this way at least you'll have a hobby that you then fully understand .
Harsh in my words "no", just being logical in trying to save the lives of fish that are extremely long lived.
Goldfish who can life up to 40 years or in the case of koi 80 years were others think oh its only a fish the dont live for long when in truth they do the opposite.
Think of all the enjoyment you'll get from your fish over this time span all those days sitting by the Pond watching your fish swim around their long term home.
Our two eldest which are our pets and not for sale to anyone are now in their 27th year, why because I chose to study our hobby in great detail after Val bought me our first fish health book for my birthday all those tears ago.
This book is now dog eared through constant use over all these years and has helped Val and I to become
very good at our hobby and willing to pass on our 27 years of experiance to newer novice keepers
rgrds
dave
You have also learned a very valuable lesson havent you , ad thats to QT anynew fish for a month so you may threat anything they come up with in that space of time.
This is what I mean about buying books on our hobby it would save alott of tears if you did this in the first place.
Many novices choose to ignor this advice only to pay the price at a later date when somehing like this happens.
Amazon sells some very decent books such as the interpet Manual of Fish Health at a lesser price than buying from a bookstore.
I recomend you buy this book ASAP this way at least you'll have a hobby that you then fully understand .
Harsh in my words "no", just being logical in trying to save the lives of fish that are extremely long lived.
Goldfish who can life up to 40 years or in the case of koi 80 years were others think oh its only a fish the dont live for long when in truth they do the opposite.
Think of all the enjoyment you'll get from your fish over this time span all those days sitting by the Pond watching your fish swim around their long term home.
Our two eldest which are our pets and not for sale to anyone are now in their 27th year, why because I chose to study our hobby in great detail after Val bought me our first fish health book for my birthday all those tears ago.
This book is now dog eared through constant use over all these years and has helped Val and I to become
very good at our hobby and willing to pass on our 27 years of experiance to newer novice keepers
rgrds
dave
HTH
Howard
With fish from 3 different stores including some feeder fish I would not want to blame any one store without some proof. At this point any of the 3 or some combination of the 3 could have contributed to the problems.
Well, as a sort of another update - I drained my pond today, the fish is vrry hard to get from under the stones that line the sides, sigh. Anyway, managed to recover about 20 at first, no signs of argulus, but in some anchor worm infestations are real bad.
Interesting that some have no signs of it whatsoever.
Also bottom was surprisingly clear, I expected to see like a knee-deep mess, but there was not much of organic waste to speak of (which then makes it unclear why there was so much foam).
After half a day of the dry pond, refilled a bit of water thinking of some more fish that should have been there, but were not found and found 5 more coming alive (a small miracle in this heat, I totally expected them to be stuck water-less behind rocks and died by that time), managed to catch 3 more, hopefully the other two will still live
Anyway, hopefully will finish install of two extra filters and uv lights tomorrow, and meanwhile the fish is living in aboveground pool full of Prazi and Dimilin. Now the trick is to make water quality in the pool last for a week without water changes, I guess.
Interesting that some have no signs of it whatsoever.
Also bottom was surprisingly clear, I expected to see like a knee-deep mess, but there was not much of organic waste to speak of (which then makes it unclear why there was so much foam).
After half a day of the dry pond, refilled a bit of water thinking of some more fish that should have been there, but were not found and found 5 more coming alive (a small miracle in this heat, I totally expected them to be stuck water-less behind rocks and died by that time), managed to catch 3 more, hopefully the other two will still live
Anyway, hopefully will finish install of two extra filters and uv lights tomorrow, and meanwhile the fish is living in aboveground pool full of Prazi and Dimilin. Now the trick is to make water quality in the pool last for a week without water changes, I guess.
So, almost a month gone by. I moved most of the fish from my pool back into the pond today.
The only two I did not I am somewhat concerned about.
One somewhat largish colorless goldfish (I do not think I have ever bought one like this, but since I read they change color as life goes on, perhaps it must have had red spots on the back, but not anymore - totally colorless now.) This one has red inflammation in fins, part of body and some sort of a strange bump near the mouth (it used to be much more inflamed before, but still does not look good). I imagine this is some sort of bacterial infection? I fed all fish for 5 days with food combined with Maracyn2, and then for a week with food with Maracyn (the results have been positive on other fish, another largish goldfish I have does not have any blood streaks on its fins). I also tried to treat the bump and other inflamed areas with bio-bandage. When I got it from the pond, I removed like 5-6 anchor worms from it and there were some ulcer spots where anchor worms already detached, I guess.
Not sure what to do next, another round of antibiotics? It's eating (at least it used to show up with all other fish at the feeding time) and I can't say it's inactive.
The other one is a koi, about a week after relocation into the pool I was inspecting fish there and noticed this one did not have dorsal fin at all, just two bones sticking out, huh? It was not the case of finrot, I think, I never saw any growth or anything. The fish is pretty active, comes for food and such. I tried to apply biobandage whenever I can catch it (not frequently), and the situation does not seem to improve. I wonder what next steps can I take here?
BTW, speaking of the pond, fun thing has happened, after I refilled it back with water a month ago, I poured in like 1/2 gal of 20% (? or was it 10%?) household ammonia in there, once the ammonia was consumed by bacteria in the filter in about a week, in three more days algae bloom (that started like 2 days in after filling) started to clear and the water turned to be crystal clear (and still remains) even before I had a chance to activate UV filters. I guess there is some truth in the research that some of the ammonia-consuming bacteria also targets algae when it's starving.
The only two I did not I am somewhat concerned about.
One somewhat largish colorless goldfish (I do not think I have ever bought one like this, but since I read they change color as life goes on, perhaps it must have had red spots on the back, but not anymore - totally colorless now.) This one has red inflammation in fins, part of body and some sort of a strange bump near the mouth (it used to be much more inflamed before, but still does not look good). I imagine this is some sort of bacterial infection? I fed all fish for 5 days with food combined with Maracyn2, and then for a week with food with Maracyn (the results have been positive on other fish, another largish goldfish I have does not have any blood streaks on its fins). I also tried to treat the bump and other inflamed areas with bio-bandage. When I got it from the pond, I removed like 5-6 anchor worms from it and there were some ulcer spots where anchor worms already detached, I guess.
Not sure what to do next, another round of antibiotics? It's eating (at least it used to show up with all other fish at the feeding time) and I can't say it's inactive.
The other one is a koi, about a week after relocation into the pool I was inspecting fish there and noticed this one did not have dorsal fin at all, just two bones sticking out, huh? It was not the case of finrot, I think, I never saw any growth or anything. The fish is pretty active, comes for food and such. I tried to apply biobandage whenever I can catch it (not frequently), and the situation does not seem to improve. I wonder what next steps can I take here?
BTW, speaking of the pond, fun thing has happened, after I refilled it back with water a month ago, I poured in like 1/2 gal of 20% (? or was it 10%?) household ammonia in there, once the ammonia was consumed by bacteria in the filter in about a week, in three more days algae bloom (that started like 2 days in after filling) started to clear and the water turned to be crystal clear (and still remains) even before I had a chance to activate UV filters. I guess there is some truth in the research that some of the ammonia-consuming bacteria also targets algae when it's starving.
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Man the second fish is a mess with the caudial fin rotted completely through and I doubt it will grow back again ever!!!!......
The other fish is showing classic signes of bacterial infection to the tail and pectoral fins and an antibacterial drug should be used if the are going to need any chance of survival .
What I cant understand is how you allowed things to get this bad before asking for advice .
It takes a while for the caudial fin to rot away and sadly through your in-action of doing nothing it will never regrow again ever
More than one lesson has been learned here :-
1) Never to buy fish from differing outlets .
2) Buy and read the book I asked you to buy a while back.
3) Never leave fish to suffer it is up to you if they live or die (remember goldfish live 40 years koi 80)....
4) If unsure then please ask as thats why we are all here those who know more have a duty to help you.
5)please ask in good time so that bits of your fish will be saved and able to regrow again i;e the caudial fin in the second photo which I believe is a koi yes ?
I would never use household bleach to mature a pond ever Microbe-lift PL filterpad innocculent gel is about the best product I've come across to do this job.
rgrds
Dave
The other fish is showing classic signes of bacterial infection to the tail and pectoral fins and an antibacterial drug should be used if the are going to need any chance of survival .
What I cant understand is how you allowed things to get this bad before asking for advice .
It takes a while for the caudial fin to rot away and sadly through your in-action of doing nothing it will never regrow again ever
More than one lesson has been learned here :-
1) Never to buy fish from differing outlets .
2) Buy and read the book I asked you to buy a while back.
3) Never leave fish to suffer it is up to you if they live or die (remember goldfish live 40 years koi 80)....
4) If unsure then please ask as thats why we are all here those who know more have a duty to help you.
5)please ask in good time so that bits of your fish will be saved and able to regrow again i;e the caudial fin in the second photo which I believe is a koi yes ?
I would never use household bleach to mature a pond ever Microbe-lift PL filterpad innocculent gel is about the best product I've come across to do this job.
rgrds
Dave
Sorry, but it sounds almost like you did not read what I wrote ond only operate on pictures.
I know dorsal (I don't see any missing caudial fins?) fin is pretty drastic, but does not it take quite a while to rot away? There was no slow rotting away, it disappeared quite instantly, I cannot say overnight, but when I was moving them into the quarantine pool, I inspected every fish, there was no sign of finrot in any of them. So I am wondering if this was some sort of an injury? Again, there was no intermediate state, one day the fish was fine, several days later it had no dorsal fin. And yes, it's a koi.
I did administer antibiotics for two weeks (in food) to fight off bacterial infection and it helped in some other fish, just not the big white goldfish. That's why I am asking if there is anything else could be done. Also I am not sure what is the bump near the mouth is?
I know dorsal (I don't see any missing caudial fins?) fin is pretty drastic, but does not it take quite a while to rot away? There was no slow rotting away, it disappeared quite instantly, I cannot say overnight, but when I was moving them into the quarantine pool, I inspected every fish, there was no sign of finrot in any of them. So I am wondering if this was some sort of an injury? Again, there was no intermediate state, one day the fish was fine, several days later it had no dorsal fin. And yes, it's a koi.
I did administer antibiotics for two weeks (in food) to fight off bacterial infection and it helped in some other fish, just not the big white goldfish. That's why I am asking if there is anything else could be done. Also I am not sure what is the bump near the mouth is?
The bump on the white fihes mouth may very well be the start of mouth rot if it is youll have to get on top of it straight away as you could loose the fish.
I dont know what your doing wrong at the moment but I have an idea.
If you look at the redness in the caudial and the red bump of the white goldfish its giving you warning signs that all isn't right and yes I was Viewing from the photo typing about one and meanng the other ,
I've a strong suspision this is to do with columnaris disease
You are loosing fish go back through everything from your filters, maintenance of pond and equipment water test kits etc and check everything the answer I suspect is at the start of everything by mixing different fish and not paying attention as to what you are buying)....
Ko's dorsals dont disapear overnight if you say you didnt notice anything untowards and looking at the photo it could be the smoking gum we are looking for.
I've added to charts to the bottom of this post to help you identify any potential problems you may see in the future :-
zoom up to 125-150 to view this
rgrds
Dave
I dont know what your doing wrong at the moment but I have an idea.
If you look at the redness in the caudial and the red bump of the white goldfish its giving you warning signs that all isn't right and yes I was Viewing from the photo typing about one and meanng the other ,
I've a strong suspision this is to do with columnaris disease
You are loosing fish go back through everything from your filters, maintenance of pond and equipment water test kits etc and check everything the answer I suspect is at the start of everything by mixing different fish and not paying attention as to what you are buying)....
Ko's dorsals dont disapear overnight if you say you didnt notice anything untowards and looking at the photo it could be the smoking gum we are looking for.
I've added to charts to the bottom of this post to help you identify any potential problems you may see in the future :-
zoom up to 125-150 to view thisrgrds
Dave