Still a Leak...

[Jason]

So my 45 mil EPDM liner still has a leak (or two) somewhere even though I swear I found all of them and patched all 21 of them!? Thing is, it's leaking worse than before :/

Anyways, Im going to Lowes today to purchase a PVC Mesh 20mil liner for $59 (10x12') to replace my 10x10' Firestone one and was wondering what do I need to be cautious about with PVC as I have only ever used Vinyl, Preformed and EPDM?

I am going to most likely use my 20mil vinyl 7x9' liner and center patch it over the 10x10' EPDM for future use.

 

[sissy]

I had pvc and only thing is that it cannot dry out to much from sun as it will crack after awhile .But that takes a couple of years before that will even happen ,Just don't drop anything as it cracks and gets holes in it easier .I use them in my waterfall filter as they are more flexiable

 

[Big Lou]

STOP! I advice you to not use a PVC liner.. PVC liner are far inferior to EDPM. Having 21 leaks leads me to believe there are objects either under the liner or on the liner causing the punctures. Do not attempt to adhere two liners over one another. This will end up in failure

If possible remove the original EDPM liner and any padding.
After the liner and padding is out carefully examine the bare bottom for sharp objects such as rocks, pebbles, roots or debris. Remove all such objects.

If not possible to remove the old EDPM liner.
use a rubber mallet to pound down all possible sharp objects into the bottom soil.

Liner Pad.
Whichever of the above you do I strongly suggest you also purchase enough liner protective matting to lay two layers over the bottom before installing the new EDPM liner. Ensure both the padding and liner extend about three feet beyound the ponds edge.

If this posts gets to you after you have purchased the PVC liner it is in your best Interst to return the PVC liner.

Good luck.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

STOP! I advice you to not use a PVC liner.. PVC liner are far inferior to EDPM. Having 21 leaks leads me to believe there are objects either under the liner or on the liner causing the punctures. Do not attempt to adhere two liners over one another. This will end up in failure

If possible remove the original EDPM liner and any padding.
After the liner and padding is out carefully examine the bare bottom for sharp objects such as rocks, pebbles, roots or debris. Remove all such objects.

If not possible to remove the old EDPM liner.
use a rubber mallet to pound down all possible sharp objects into the bottom soil.

Liner Pad.
Whichever of the above you do I strongly suggest you also purchase enough liner protective matting to lay two layers over the bottom before installing the new EDPM liner. Ensure both the padding and liner extend about three feet beyound the ponds edge.

If this posts gets to you after you have purchased the PVC liner it is in your best Interst to return the PVC liner.

Good luck.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[sissy]

His pond is on his patio and he did state he dropped stuff on the liner and since he plans on building a regular pond I see no harm .Jason just got married and had a baby so his budget is tight ,which a lot of us can understand

 

[Jason]

The pond is literally 4.5'x6' and 2' deep, it is on a perfectly flat smooth concrete slab and the reason the original 45 mil EPDM got holes is because I would drop large rocks and cinder blocks on the liner and slide them around not thinking it would bust the liner open (yeah it was stupid lol). I have since patched all holes (That I could possibly find) with 3M 5200 and patch kit and still have missed one or two.

The pond is rectangle with straight walls, on top of the concrete slab are now 1" thick padded foam workshop feet mats with a mix of play sand in the small crevices in between. Their are no sharp objects now or rocks in the bottom, and the pond is fully covered under a driveway patio and get's maybe 45min of sun during sunrise.

Curious on why sealing a liner onto another liner won't work? Can you explain Big Lou? Thanks for all the help.

 

[Big Lou]

Speaking of your situation only the first issue would have been dissimilar materiats, PVC and EDPM. The second issue, even if you were using EDPM, would have been bonding. Both liners must in better than like new clean condition. Both must be on a perfectly flat smooth surface. Your goal of adhering a large section over an existing section would require exact precision. Not one error can be made. Initially and or over time there is an overwhelming chance the bond will not be 100%. One minute void will allow water to make its way between the liners and since the original liner was plagued with leaks that water could find its way out of both liners. Jason, just expanding an existing EDPM liner by any adhesion method is very risky and very subject to leaks. I am confident my fellow members will back me up on that fact.

Now if your intention is too completely cover the first liner with the new one then no gluing is required. Lay padding and new EDPM liner as previously recommended. Please seriously consider my advice. In will be easier and better to either replace or overlay the existing liner.

If you would like to reply back stating your exact plan I would be more than willing to review your purposed procedure.

Best regards,
Louis

 

[Jason]

I was just going to lay the 10x10' EPDM on my car port and then center the 7x9' over the top of it, smooth it out, fold 7x9' sides back a few inches and apply 2 bead rows of 3M 5200 and then fold edges down and smooth out with my 12" squeegee that I use for vinyl stickers. I guess you are saying the sealant wont hold?

Also after seeing what I will be using the PVC liner for (No sunlight, no sharp objects, no stretching, etc.) do you think it will be fine for the application? Thanks again

 

[Big Lou]

Under no circumstance while I recommend PVC liner. I used it in a bog and had continual issues. To me it does not conform to desired shapes as well as EDPM. PVC liner is much thinner and easily punctured. In cold, PVC liner will stiffen and sections out of water will shrink.

I would like to do additional research on adhering PVC liner to EDPM before making further comments. In will be tomorrow before I can get back to you. By the way I do feel your pain. Due to failed EDPM adhered joints I've overlayed my pond. A tree PITA.

Is economics your primary reason for using PVC? Be back as soon as possible. Please be patient. A mistake can cost you even more time and money.

 

[Lisak1]

Agree agree agree! One liner on top of another is only going to give you further headaches. If water gets between those liners you could find your top liner ballooning out of your pond - saw it happen to a pond with my own eyes. Not fun!

EPDM is the way to go. A piece of 10x10 liner isn't that much money in the grand scheme of things - maybe twice the price, but you'll make up the difference by not having to buy sealer and patch and tranquilizers! haha!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I was just going to lay the 10x10' EPDM on my car port and then center the 7x9' over the top of it, smooth it out, fold 7x9' sides back a few inches and apply 2 bead rows of 3M 5200 and then fold edges down and smooth out with my 12" squeegee that I use for vinyl stickers. I guess you are saying the sealant wont hold?

Also after seeing what I will be using the PVC liner for (No sunlight, no sharp objects, no stretching, etc.) do you think it will be fine for the application? Thanks again

Is 3M 5200 compatible with EPDM of PVC? Some chemical compounds will everely compromise the integrity of EPDM. This may be why even after all of your patching your present liner is still leaking, even worse as you stated.
This link lists various chemical compatibility with EPDM ratings.
http://www.fbs-online.com/Centre/Prod/EPDM-chem-com-res.htm

 

[Big Lou]

Morning Jason,
I could not find any information regarding gluing a PVC liner to EDPM. I did find the following comments regarding PVC liner. Jason, I stand by my previous recommendations. Recover or start over with liner padding and a EDPM liner.

Happy pounding,
Louis

"PVC liner has a life span of about 10 years where EDPM has a real life span of about 50 years. PVC liner is stiff and becomes brittle with age and isn't going to move with the EDPM liner. The joint will fail. Can it be done? Yes but I wouldn't do it. 10 years is a short period of time and it flies by........

....... they are also more easily damaged by UV radiation. Protect all surfaces above the waterline from direct sunlight. Cover the surfaces with rocks, a deck, creeping vegetation, or latex paint. PVC should be considered a temporary liner, with a reasonable life span of 2-3 years. PVC is not a first choice if you plan for the pond to be a permanent fixture."

 

[Big Lou]

Afternoon Jason,

Go to the attached site for a good selection of EDPM, PVC liners and underlayment (padding). Drs. Foster & Smith is a great pond supply seller. If you must use a PVC liner I would recommend you lay back down your thoroghly cleaned old EDPM liner. Next, lay down a layer of underlayment. Finally lay down the PVC liner.

Key notes:
.....Ensure all liners sufficiently cover your pond and perimeter. I recommend you lay two to three foot of liners beyond the perimeter to ensure sufficent coverage. You can always cut off but nearly impossible to add back on.
.....Old carpet or numerous thick blankets can be used in lieu of true underlayment.

Drs. Foster & Smith Pond Suppies
http://pet-supplies.drsfostersmith....&visitorID=&cartcount=0&wishcount=0&division=

 

[Jason]

I have 1" foam standing padding on the bottom now, do I need to put anything on the concrete side walls or will they be fine?

 

[Lisak1]

If it were me I would pad behind the liner, just to prevent any possibility that the liner would be punctured by the side walls, or more likely something pushing the liner up against the side walls. Better safe than sorry in my estimation. A pond we visited (similar to yours, built on the cement patio under a deck) had suffered a puncture when a neighbor's dog hopped in for an unauthorized swim. When they replaced the liner they padded the whole pond to hopefully prevent another problem in the future. The padding will provide just enough "give" to protect the liner in many cases from rocks or other sharp objects that may be dropped or fall into the pond.