Still losing fish.

[stonecreek1]

Good afternoon all. I am still at a loss on what is killing my baby koi. The water permiter as of this morning was:
pH. 7.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20

I brought in a microscope and have tried doing a scape but I seriously don't see anything? I am not sure the microscope is strong enough. My husband teaches and borrowed it from the school. I think they have a parasite because they continue to flash along the bottom and rocks and sides of the tank. Some seem to just be hanging at the bottom not to active. I am not sure what to do. I looked up and there are no fish vets anywhere that could possibly look a a specimen for me under their scope. I am just not sure what to do!?!?!? Thanks for any advice

 

[Thomas Gannon]

Can you get a close up picture of one of the fish

 

[Mmathis]

@stonecreek1 Can you give us a brief description of your pond again? I know you've posted before, but my memory isn't working today....

How many babies do you think you started with, and how many have you lost?

Is it just the fry, or are there issues with the older fish, as well?

 

[Marshall]

It sounds like something has infected the koi themselves and not the water or habitat. I am an amateur when it comes to any pond critters besides turtles but I am sure someone here knows what to do. I would only advise that if you have other koi besides the babies then you need to get the babies into a stock tank or other tank to quarantine them from the rest of the community

 

[stonecreek1]

Can you get a close up picture of one of the fish

 

[stonecreek1]

@stonecreek1 Can you give us a brief description of your pond again? I know you've posted before, but my memory isn't working today....

How many babies do you think you started with, and how many have you lost?

Is it just the fry, or are there issues with the older fish, as well?

This is a 300 gallon stock tank that I brought in 5 weeks ago to the basement. I have about 250 small koi ranging from 5 weeks to 2 months. The larges is probably 1.5 inches maybe 2 now. I had trouble with the water. I initially pumped the pond water (20,000 gallons) into the tank without using the same outdoor filter so we had to go through the cycle process. There were bouts with high ammonia and nitrites. I have lost probably a dozen now. I have brought in rocks and have hyacinths from the pond in the stock tank. The water is 64 degrees. I sweep the bottom ever other day to keep the bottom clean. The large outdoor koi were doing some flashing before going down into hybernation so I very well may have an outdoor issue and could have brought it in with me. Our friend who helped build the pond gave me PP and told me to treat both the tank and outside, but I am very uncomfortable trying to calculate and use that as I know nothing about it. Thank you all for your help!

 

[Smaug]

Yiu have a 20000 gallon tank in yiur basement ? My whole basement wouldn't hold that much!

 

[stonecreek1]

LOL!!! No. No ... I have a 300 gallon in the basement and a 20,000 outside!!! That would be a full time job taking care of that in my basement!!!

Yiu have a 20000 gallon tank in yiur basement ? My whole basement wouldn't hold that much!

 

[Smaug]

Oh ok,I thought you were just really hard core about your fish keeping!

 

[Tula]

The fish appears to have a bacterial infection, from the pinkness noted under the skin. I think secondary infections can set in from a variety of things, such as parasites, stress, high ammonia and other things.

I hope someone with more knowledge than me chimes in, but I think you need an antibiotic treatment, or something to kill parasite ( if they are present) , or both.

As I said, I hope someone with more experience jumps in, but I wanted to at least give you my opinion. One thing is for sure, the dead fish have pink under their skin, the beginnings of an ulcer, so something is wrong.

 

[MitchM]

Even though your water tests are now reading zero for ammonia, I think the fish you pictured have died from previous ammonia poisoning.
The gills look quite red.

There's no action you can take because the damage has already been done, sorry.

.

 

[Mmathis]

@stonecreek1 Thank you for the pictures! Unfortunately I know very little about fish problems. If it was me, at the very least -- and since you have them confined to a stock tank, which is perfect -- I would add salt to the water. I would defer to someone with more knowledge about dosing and salt concentrations. Or have you done that already? You probably could also be doing water changes [and if you're using salt, you have to make adjustments for that].

My first steps are almost always [unless I have a problem that is obvious] to isolate, treat with salt, do frequent water changes, keep the water pristine, keep an eye on water parameters, and observe, observe, observe!

Do you have any filtration going in the stock tank? You mentioned cleaning the bottom, but [unless I missed it] I didn't catch how you are filtering the water. And how often are you checking the water parameters: ammonia, nitrites, nitrates....?

Those little babies produce a lot more waste than you'd think they would, seriously! So this might be nothing more than a water quality issue. Poor water quality will weaken the fish, causing them to be more prone to illness/diseases/parasites.

And as much as we hate to think about it, sometimes fish just die. With babies, this could just be nature's way of culling.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Even though your water tests are now reading zero for ammonia, I think the fish you pictured have died from previous ammonia poisoning.
The gills look quite red.

There's no action you can take because the damage has already been done, sorry.

.

I reluctantly concur with MitchM's assessment. In addition to the extremely red gills, the fish exhibit what appears to be misshapened operculum. Both are signs of acute Ammonia poisoning. In severe cases, fish never recover because the damage to the gills is just too great. This appears to be what has happened here.
Very sorry.

 

[Dave 54]

What filteration did you have on this stock tank please it should have been seperate from that of the ponds filtratiion that is why many of us choose to breed in QT fasilities over that of the pond in the koi world .
Your friend saying use PP is suggesting a big hammer to crack a small nut many of us dont like to use it because of the negatibe effects it has on the pond .
When looking at yiur scrapes what magnification are you useing , jus how powerful is this microscope.
I have to strongly concur with both Mitch M and Meyer on this the misshapen Operculum being the give away, so to use plain english because of this your fry's gills are fried they are so damaged they cannot breath


Dave

 

[Mmathis]

@MitchM @Meyer Jordan @Dave 54 But wouldn't doing SOMETHING at least possibly help the remaining fish? Those other little guys still deserve a chance, and this also (unfortunately) is a good way for @stonecreek1 to learn how to keep from making similar mistakes in the future. I'm sorry, but your comments all just sound so like you're saying, "OK, the fish are doomed. End of discussion." Sure, the other 200 or so babies might be damaged and/or die, too, but it's not time to pull the plug (and I know that's not what you're saying, but just the impression I got -- nothing personal).

@stonecreek1 Did you ever tell us about the filtration in the stock tank? Do you have a pump with some type of filter vs very frequent water changes (but that's a lot of water to be changing on a daily basis, so I vote for a mature filter). Again, those might be tiny fish, but they're still producing a lot of ammonia that has to be dealt with (I once had a dozen or so goldfish fry, maybe 1/2" long, in a 50 gal. tote and a mature filter and STILL had trouble keeping up with the water quality....). So if you don't have a filter and a pump, separate, just for the stock tank, I would make that a priority. Until then, water changes like crazy!