Stumped. Odd behavior. What could be wrong with this fish?

[capewind]

I would love to see the pictures Dave. Externally, we could find nothing wrong. We were getting pretty desparate with inspecting her, and as I wrote above, the only external evidence of ANYTHING was the scar tissue over her remaining eye was getting thinner (not something that happend overnight), and she lost one scale on the pvc when the pond was getting refilled... From an external view, her body seemed the same, not per se "bloated" or anything else... Since she was an inside fish and so friendly, anything obvious would have been spotted. The first symptoms was simply like she looked like she felt off... in the same way you can look at a friend (human LOL) and while they may not be sick, you can see they are not feeling 100%... Not having any answers, we went as far as pulling her out and doing salt baths as a last ditch effort... which she didnt handle well at all, and I believe trying them was the final stressor that she couldnt handle.

 

[Dave 54]

Some of the things reported i'e Popeye etc can be put down to bad water conditions but you have reprted all being well with them , how old was the test kit you've been using as even they can pass their sell by date. I
'ts just that we have to elliminate everything that we can to get to the bottom of things , like I said it isnt rocket science more plain old detective work to sometimes get to the answer.
I've found my autopsy photographs I just have to figure out how to pass them over from one olace to another.
We will get down to the nitty gritty eventually thus saving any future fish

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

Thanks Dave. Unfortunately, we know the exacts of how she got popeye/lost her sight, and I really wish it had been a water quality issue, as that would have been much easier to accept. AKA bought new fish (no QT at the time, thought folks who did that were paranoid - ya, about that)... within a short period of adding the new fish, one of the new fish developed popeye. Went back to the same store to get meds, and while looking in the pond (same one the new fish we purchased came out of), there were several others with the same bulging eyes issues... We lost the new fish, one large goldfish (pineconed) and "Tank" (the fish we are talking about) lost her sight... Trying to remember the exact of when that was, and I think it was fall of 2010.

I do not have solid values on our KH/GH... The only tests I have for those are on the strips, and the numbers we get there cant be right. AKA just doesnt match up for our area per another member. Too good to be true numbers, so reason to question them. PH has been stable/consistent, so not going to worry about it, just know I need to go online to get better tests for them, sooner than later.

The only real changes I can pinpoint was the addition of rescued fish in June. We did "over load" the 750 (3000 gph filtration) in my opinion but was watching for an ammonia spike which never came (in the last two years that pond has never been over 0.25 and 99% of the time has been at zero), and we did massive water changes within a short period (from the pond), but the water changes were due to a spawn (smelled awful and thought ammonia would go off the chart because of it) and then water changes relating to the use of Prazi and Proform C (precautionary for the rescue fish). Oh, and the rescued fish all made it, and are doing great... as is Tank's former tankmate Tramp.

 

[Dave 54]

Ouch I hate those words "test strips" , its been proven time and time again that they are C**p your best bet is to find a company say like Tetra who make the KH/GH drop tests and use them instead, those "test strips" can be so wide of the mark.
Overstocking a pond can and does make problems but hey who am I to speak, my system is overstocked in conventional words but the system is acctually a retro fitted Koi Dealership QT pond that was designed to take far more koi than my level of over stocking .
Maintenance is a weekly clean of my vortex and a 30% water change with the other filters cleaned bi annually spring and late autumn.
Careful monitoring of your water , koi etc often thwarts potential problems its a question of learning to read things in the correct way.
As I've said before it aint rocket science as some would have you believe just plain old common sense, along with self eduction through reading and other koi keepers with many years experience .
We have one chap in our club that makes me shudder ( he thinks we koi keepers are soft on our charges lol) perhaps we are but who am I to question him he has 40 years as a fish farmer behind him ( trout and carp) so I do take what he says with reverence and have pushed my koi to the limit with no ill effects ( when our bio filter sprange a damn leak )they were cut off from the fiilter system for a week whilst h an our clubs health officer made a new bio filter and worked out just how to take it off the system then reconnect , he was of course right and the koi took things in their stride but it didnt stop me having nightmares about the system collapsing for a whole week lol , I can laugh now but at the time well !!!!..........
Iv'e not had mine spawn yet but know all about their ability to mess with ammonia levels in the pond who knows perhaps this summer it may just happen or worst case senario all our koi are gay.

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

I agree with you, I dont like them one bit. I went to the store to get new Nitrate, KH, and GH and they didnt have what I needed. I was able to get another liquid test for Nitrate, but nothing for KH/GH other than the combo strips. I dont like the strips in the simple regard of when you set them down, there may still be a tiny drip of extra water on it, and it will blur the color result next to it. I did compare the liquid PH, Nitrite and Nitrate with the test strips, and they were the same to pretty close, but I wont rely on them. I am actually trying to use them up LOL.

We had a kiddie pool in the kitchen for fry/babies... Found a 55 gallon tank on the side of the road for $40 (with stand, filters, everything), so moved the babies still there to that... The kiddie pool only had 65-70 gallons in it (2/3 full), so moved the water and the fish... Moved a few of the biggest out, but the fish load is higher (the little shits are starting to grow fast now, there are 27, 2-3" fish in there at present), and are in less water, so basically been expecting a new cycle, even tho the filters are the same. Sure enough, the ammonia was starting to come up (between zero and .25, calling it .13), and as of yesterday is back at zero. Nitrite is still at zero. Nitrates are about 30ppm. I know I am pushing the envelope here, so testing this tank daily with the strips (to use them up), and then every 3rd day using the liquid. I am actually surprised to not be getting a Nitrite reading. Either it hasnt spiked yet, or we had a good enough bacteria colony to take care of it. Either way, til the population drops, will stay on top of testing this tank. We have 5 or 6 who we should be able to move soon. They can "almost" take a full sized pellet (looks like a fat cigar hanging out of their mouth). I dont care that they will have to compete with bigger babies for their food in the next tank (600 gallons), but some of them are gaining on 6" and are pigs. Just want them to have a sporting chance at getting food, since it is inside, and there is no green algae to snack on (tons of plants tho), and I really do not want to have to overfeed in the 600.



Variables LOL... Seems like my favorite word this week, and why I hate blanket statements. I was just looking at a breeder site, and they had written something about stocking rate of 200 gallons of water, per box (a box could be 200-300, 1-3" fish, or 60, 5-8" fish), and when you think in those perspectives, the 100 or so babies I have in the 750 right now is nothing (but it is a high load to ME LOL).

Obviously, we need to be paying attention. I really think the low stock rates, and huge weekly water changes, are meant for the group of fish owners who won't pay attention like they should, have issues they simply blame on lack of water changes, and just get onto the gospel train of how it must be done like a broken record. I wont say water changes should never be done, but I think a lot of people make this hobby more work then it needs to be. In theory, it could be said we do an average of 5% weekly water changes on some of the contained areas. It isnt with the intent to "change water" but to clean some filters in a bowl/tote of the same water, and add for evaporation. 30% water change on a weekly basis is a LOT of water TO ME, but YOU know your set up, and what works for you and your system. Depending on the TOTAL picture, some folks may need ZERO water changes, and maybe someone else may need to go 50% or even more.



Those nightmares are what I refer to as my over thinking LOL. I believe we can learn a lot through others trials and errors, but I have a great deal of respect for those doing things on a grand scale, that blows conventional thinking out of the window, and is clearly working.

 

[Dave 54]

Ah thanx you cheered me up wiith the cross dressing but I havent seen any mincing about the pond as yet , my 30% water change is what it takes to flush the vortex twice our filters are what I would call huge with a 32" diameter it gives the bottom drain a good flush of any detritus each week I wouldnt call them exessive and its great fun sitting by the pond whilst the water trickles back in through th dechlorination unit ( if you dont have one buy one they save a fortune with an initial outlay of around £54.00 UK they arent that expensive nor are the replacement cartriges at £5.00 per 10,000 gallons imperial.
As to waiting for those amonia spikes the first time we had to go through that in the pond god it was sheer terror it went against everything I had leaned about running a 200 gallon imperial 6 x 2 x 2.5 Aquarium.
A good use of a kiddie pool that, would you believe we use a baby changing mat to do any minor operations such as remove part of a fin or clean up the wound..
One thing I swear by when taking the Jap matting filters out for their clean is the Microbe-lift PL Filterpad innoculant gel it seems to kick start them within a day or two with no spike showing ammonia wise infact I swear by it .
Our QT tank is huge and it has its own filterunit plus UV-C and botton drain but I dont hve a clue as yet exactly how much water it holds possible 350 imperial perhap more, I'll have to borrow a water meter to see exactly how much it takes it spent the last three years sitting in our neighbours Garden waiting for that phase of our build to commence ( we lost nearly 2 whole years to the damn Jet Stream being Parked over the South of England bringing us rain, rain, and yet more rain thankfully Jeff was able to catch up (he's built our ponds exteria, the filter housing, Val's Disabled Garden etc and got phase 3 finished this year just before phase 2 was finished .
Now all we need finish is the cosmetic side of things.
I've added some shots at varying stages of the build and a shot of one of our oldest koi age 26.
You can see the Dechlorination unit in one of the shots the size of our filters with Jap Matting etc it should give you a rough idea of the pond which is free standing
The filter housing is double glazed with three sliding units for access to the filters.










rgrds

Dave