Temperature ups and downs causing fish illness? - need your help

[Dave 54]

Since I discovered the illnesses feeding was done for a fish count.and view the illnesses.
After I have my coffee will check out if they are alive in the fresh treated water. I will put a sprinkle of fish food in, if they are getting well a bit of food might help them.

MMATHIS - This is what I think happend. Dave is right it was neglect, the pond should have been cleaned out completely last year. In May the fish were active stirring up the muck, we had temperature swings, after a partial water change they all disappeared. I did not look to find them and spot disease sooner. When I tried to fix the problem the disease was advanced. Too Little too Late.

I read that fish have tiny stomachs and recommendations are one flake/crisp or pellet per inch of length. Sometimes we camp for 2 weeks in past years and they dont get fed. Their colors are more vivid in a pond when they can consume natural food. I never had a fish die from starvation. The pet stores tell me that a fish can go up to 7 days without eating.

Normally I feed them floating pellets. . I guess my fish numbered 2 dozen, no true count on the black comets because they are hard to see. . Mornings I would toss in 1/8 cup and they would gobble up the food and when it was gone another 1/8 cup. It would be eaten up within 5 minutes - a few pellets that got caught in the lily leaves were soften and consumed by the smaller fish. When Al gets home we sit by the pond to relax and another small portion is allowed so he can enjoy their swimming.

I dont know where your getting your information from Rose but that is totally wrong I'm affraid by a long chalk
The rule of thumb for feeding fish Rose is as nuch as the will eat in a five minute period feeding three or four times daily during the summer months so that you are in acctual fact building up their fat reserves ready for the winter months of no feeding .
I wouldnt bother with fish flake at all , you should buy wheatgerm for them when they come out of winter and the temperature stays above 10c.
Starting out with a little but building up to the five minute rule, during the summer months feed high protien feed then as we come towards the fall go back to wheatgerm until the temperature dips bellow 10c again then stop feeding until spring.
The pet store is talking rubbish for one they will eat the algae on the sides of your pond plus any insect unfortunate to fall or land in the pond when not being fed :MAD: it really gets my back up when they give out miss information like that.
Did you know that unlike goldfish koi havent got s stomach they instead take their nutrients and vitamins out as the food passes throught their intstine .
This winter they didnt eat koi pellets from late October until mid April when the temerature was 7.5c and the highest was 9c but the algae on the sides and bottom of the pond looked like a newly mown lawn when the covers came off so they had to be eating a little throughout ( they know best).
Some brands of pelleted foods claim you can feed to as low as 5c with their formula of foods thois is untrue remember 3c lower and all fish are nearer to their maker especially koi because they will stop processing their food it will start to rot and they will die younger koi especially as they are also prone to sleeping sickness the first 2 years of thgheir lives wgich starts to affect them from 2c downwards
Diesilplower whats wrong my friend need to chat ?


Dave

 

[R.Rose]

Folks, I came across this forum because i was searching for help because my pond was in trouble. I joined this forum because each one of you through day to day pond keeping have become "experts" from your experiences and hoped I could get some answers to help me. Some are learned by trial and error and others have just learned on how to build on success. When i signed into this forum I knew each one of you have different opinions based on your experiences. I told myself do not take offense to any comments. (Diesel Plower comment is funny, he's right I can search for medicated food. ---but--- I wanted to buy the food that day waiting days for it to be delivered wouldn't help the fish) The only way one can read into your comments is by talking to you in person and hear the tone in your voice and see facial expressions. After reading various threads I made some bad mistakes recently.


I think I done some things right for the past 30 years. I had happy fish they grew, mated and created more fish. I have frogs and toads. Water Lilies were blooming. I had a few fish deaths now and then.
I fed them once or twice a day as much as they could eat in 5 minutes. We go on vacations for 1 or 2 weeks and I never had a dead fish from starving The food they find gives them vivid colors. The goldfish in tanks cant compare to the pond fishs' colors. Dont trust water pumps or their prefilters and put a homemade screen device on the intake to keep smaller creatures from suction.
I protected them from predators, put up with the unslightly view the fencing and netting caused.
While cleaning the pond this year I told my husband maybe we should just fill it in with dirt. He told me to start over since I love it so much.
No one here can make me feel any worse then I have done to myself.

We created our pond without experts advice on construction, water quality and fish care, because back then in 1984 garden ponds were just becoming popular. I applied for a permit from my city and they did not have any criteria to size, how deep and if fencing was necessary (like swimming pool ordinances). The permit was ok'd for 100 square feet of surface and no deeper than 3 feet. I learned from trial and error. I have aquarium fish and did well with tropicals for 30 years. Dave I am buying that book you mentioned and I will be counting on this forum to help me out. Informaton was not that prevailent back then - I didn't own a PC - what's an internet? Since the fish were doing fine i didn't take time to learn more..
I am not doing well with the search for topics so I may need to ask what already has been asked. If any of you can refer me to a past post I would appreciate that.
Rose

 

[Lisaebetten]

Thanks for responding I felt bad for you and did take offense to the callous sounding remark (without sound). Which he still didn't take into account your need for the product on the spot. I figure there is no need to rub salt in the wound if your trying to heal it. I am trying to use the "grocery store" approach and take what I need and leave the rest behind. I think I'm to sensitive. In fact I am not even putting a "building thread" up until I'm done. I ask questions when they arise. I do have 3 pond builders that I talk with ALL THE TIME in person so I do have an extra resource. I'll be buying them dinner soon.

You pond owners who started this before there was all this professional stuff are the brave who learned by trial and error so we can learn from your mistakes. Dave as convinced me to get the book as well!

I still wonder what I'm getting myself into. I know I will get attached to future fry because I won't even kill a spider in the house or anywhere (on purpose). I made several fish hides and one with a screen so only babies can get in and out of for feeding time and safety.

Hope all goes well and sounds like your ready for another 30 years on ponding!

 

[Dave 54]

Folks, I came across this forum because i was searching for help because my pond was in trouble. I joined this forum because each one of you through day to day pond keeping have become "experts" from your experiences and hoped I could get some answers to help me. Some are learned by trial and error and others have just learned on how to build on success. When i signed into this forum I knew each one of you have different opinions based on your experiences. I told myself do not take offense to any comments. (Diesel Plower comment is funny, he's right I can search for medicated food. ---but--- I wanted to buy the food that day waiting days for it to be delivered wouldn't help the fish) The only way one can read into your comments is by talking to you in person and hear the tone in your voice and see facial expressions. After reading various threads I made some bad mistakes recently.


I think I done some things right for the past 30 years. I had happy fish they grew, mated and created more fish. I have frogs and toads. Water Lilies were blooming. I had a few fish deaths now and then.
I fed them once or twice a day as much as they could eat in 5 minutes. We go on vacations for 1 or 2 weeks and I never had a dead fish from starving The food they find gives them vivid colors. The goldfish in tanks cant compare to the pond fishs' colors. Dont trust water pumps or their prefilters and put a homemade screen device on the intake to keep smaller creatures from suction.
I protected them from predators, put up with the unslightly view the fencing and netting caused.
While cleaning the pond this year I told my husband maybe we should just fill it in with dirt. He told me to start over since I love it so much.
No one here can make me feel any worse then I have done to myself.

We created our pond without experts advice on construction, water quality and fish care, because back then in 1984 garden ponds were just becoming popular. I applied for a permit from my city and they did not have any criteria to size, how deep and if fencing was necessary (like swimming pool ordinances). The permit was ok'd for 100 square feet of surface and no deeper than 3 feet. I learned from trial and error. I have aquarium fish and did well with tropicals for 30 years. Dave I am buying that book you mentioned and I will be counting on this forum to help me out. Informaton was not that prevailent back then - I didn't own a PC - what's an internet? Since the fish were doing fine i didn't take time to learn more..
I am not doing well with the search for topics so I may need to ask what already has been asked. If any of you can refer me to a past post I would appreciate that.
Rose

Rose like you when we started we'd never even heard of a forum and we though computers were for gamers we actively shied away from them for many years as a result but one thing I did find when we finally bit the bullet so to speak was that there is alot of wrong information out there in internet land and you have to be careful what you take in also beware of what we term google heads they are the most dangerous they print off information and use it as there own I came across a prolific one on a koi site that ended up killing a persons koi in the end a good friend and I outed her for what she was .
I'm glad your going to buy in books to read call me old fasioned but you cant beat them, plus you know the information therin is factual and correct who knows perhaps you may go on to build a really good one of your own for years of experience in the hobby we bow to you as you've got 30 years under your belt to our 27

Dave

 

[Lisaebetten]

Folks, I came across this forum because i was searching for help because my pond was in trouble. I joined this forum because each one of you through day to day pond keeping have become "experts" from your experiences and hoped I could get some answers to help me. Some are learned by trial and error and others have just learned on how to build on success. When i signed into this forum I knew each one of you have different opinions based on your experiences. I told myself do not take offense to any comments. (Diesel Plower comment is funny, he's right I can search for medicated food. ---but--- I wanted to buy the food that day waiting days for it to be delivered wouldn't help the fish) The only way one can read into your comments is by talking to you in person and hear the tone in your voice and see facial expressions. After reading various threads I made some bad mistakes recently.


I think I done some things right for the past 30 years. I had happy fish they grew, mated and created more fish. I have frogs and toads. Water Lilies were blooming. I had a few fish deaths now and then.
I fed them once or twice a day as much as they could eat in 5 minutes. We go on vacations for 1 or 2 weeks and I never had a dead fish from starving The food they find gives them vivid colors. The goldfish in tanks cant compare to the pond fishs' colors. Dont trust water pumps or their prefilters and put a homemade screen device on the intake to keep smaller creatures from suction.
I protected them from predators, put up with the unslightly view the fencing and netting caused.
While cleaning the pond this year I told my husband maybe we should just fill it in with dirt. He told me to start over since I love it so much.
No one here can make me feel any worse then I have done to myself.

We created our pond without experts advice on construction, water quality and fish care, because back then in 1984 garden ponds were just becoming popular. I applied for a permit from my city and they did not have any criteria to size, how deep and if fencing was necessary (like swimming pool ordinances). The permit was ok'd for 100 square feet of surface and no deeper than 3 feet. I learned from trial and error. I have aquarium fish and did well with tropicals for 30 years. Dave I am buying that book you mentioned and I will be counting on this forum to help me out. Informaton was not that prevailent back then - I didn't own a PC - what's an internet? Since the fish were doing fine i didn't take time to learn more..
I am not doing well with the search for topics so I may need to ask what already has been asked. If any of you can refer me to a past post I would appreciate that.
Rose

I am also having a hard time searching for specific topics here. I do find them with enough time but I guess I'm spoiled and want quick results, not to mention all the other bunny trails I get on. I could spend HOURS reading here. I don't want to ask a question that has been asked several times already. I don't trust the open internet for anything and would only stick to these people who live it and we see their results.

 

[R.Rose]

Thanks for the encouragement Dave but no need for the salute. I did things blindly but you educated yourself to do the best you can you get a nod from me. I research more now, like head lice. There was a coworker who dtr got headlice and then she got them and everyone panics. They don't jump heads. They prefer clean hair to oily hair. They live only 3 days without a host. The CEO of the company I worked for gave me $100 check as a thankyou for being calm and composed and professional. I told him I know everything that there is to know about head lice. . Lisaebetten, I doubt if I will see 30 more years, at 61 it may be a stretch. My dad's father lived to 99 and dad's siblings are in their late 80's and 90's now. Dad died of a heart attack at 62, My mom's lived to 78 and so did her mom. One never knows how soon I will be joining my fish in the deep blue! I dont get offended that much any more. I hope Diesel knows I'm not upset. I do not kill spiders either and felt bad last night wiping out a yellow jacket nest 2 feet from our door. They sting just because you walk by.
I want to add 4 new fish in August and putting my fish and the new fish well being is primary so I need your inputs about guaranteeing: using my pond water (ich infested) for the tank and bio filters etc.
I came across a website by a fish biologist briansaquariumcare.com I e-mailed him out of curiosity of not guaranteeing new fish. Here is an exerpt from my e-mail to him. I gave him a run down on the fish deaths.
".......So the issue is Ick. The white spots are nearly gone from the comets but that means that the ick has fallen off and encapsulated somewhere in the pond and / or is free swimming. I read that the free swimming Icks can only survive 48 hours without a host. I am going to remove 20% of the water and put treatment in for 100 gallons. I had to buy a uv unit and that is running. I would like to add 4 new shabunkins in August. I was going to set up a quarantine tank and put fish in for 4 weeks before they go into the pond, by then the Ick in the pond should be dead. The pond water has not warmed to 70 degrees yet.
I kind of agree with you because I never quarantined pond fish and had no past problems. The forums say guaranteeing should be a must. I don’t want any more fish death due to some action I did or should not have taken. Some say that the Ick is introduced to a pond or tank and you have stated that it is always present in tanks. (And most likely in ponds too) just waiting for a stressed out fish. ....... "
http://briansaquariumcare.com/quarantine.html I will post his reply if he responds

Actually my gut says add the fish in directly from the store like I always do, after 2 more weeks of pond treatment for Ick. My mind says get opinions from you all before messing with fish lives and the expense of buying a holding tank, filtration etc, for guaranteeing. If I set up a tank now and let the bacteria cycle begin (the bacteria in a bottle gel) and add fish in 2 weeks to the tank for a 4 week quarantine period. They go into the pond at the end of August. In Cleveland summer continues into September so is this too short of a time for the fish in the pond before the temperatures dip down to a hard frost?

Lisaebetten you are getting yourself into a wonderful adventure. You will have hours of pleasure relaxing by your pond, fishy and frog entertainment and the work put into your pond is rewarding an enjoyable. Things may go wrong and if you are mindful you can handle them efficiently they will not be disasters. Just hope that your neighbors kids don't do pranks to your pond. Above all else protect yourself from accidental drownings. Ponds are like swimming pools and kids are curious.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

For what it's worth I have (in the past) added new fish to my already established and healthy fish tank without quarantine. The new fish "looked" healthy to me but when I added it to my tank (without first putting it in a quarantine period) it ended up causing the death of some of my favorite fish. Since then I have never and will never add a fish to my tanks or pond without first being positive that they are healthy and not carrying any nasties with them (the only way to do that is by observing them for a period of time) It's so much easier to spend a little money (on quarantine equipment) and have peace of mind that I'm not possibly causing a disaster and possibly the death of my fish. Also, It's a lot cheaper and easier to medicate a fish (if need be) in a quarantine/hospital tank rather than doing it after it's in your pond.

I can just about guarantee you that all of us at some time have added a fish to our established tanks/ponds without quarantine. Unfortunately many of us have had to learn the hard way that it's not the best practice.....to each his own though.

 

[R.Rose]

I wasn't expecting a reply from Brian with Brian's Aquarium Care that soon or at all. This is was his take:

"Nothing you described should have caused such a sudden issue on its own. I think what may have been the problem was the water wasn't good. If the fish were already stressed than anything, even something weak like ich, could get a strong hold. In my experience the illnesses you describe aren't potent on their own, the fish have to be stressed.
Although your fish thrive overall, they could do much better. The ideal situation for a pond is a clean out in the spring and fall with weekly water changes in between. The UV bulb should be replaced every spring. The heat ring for gas exchange is essential for them to last throughout the winter.
I think of ich, or something else, as always being present. It may not actually be present, but if you stress fish out they will come down with something. It may not be ich, it may be a fungus, a bacteria, or some parasite they have always had in their intestines but they kept it under control.
Honestly with it being a pond I don't see the point in quarantine. You can quarantine for months and a heron could bring something in on its feet. I wouldn't go through the hassle and risk. You can do a few water changes in the next week and start adding fish."
Brian expertise is indoor aquariums but common sense that outdoor ponds are closed environments too. The gist of his reply and this forums have three things in common.
1. Good water quality is thee primary requirement for disease free fish.
2. Healthy fish (not stressed) can avoid illness based on water quality and good nutrition.
3. Their human caretaker has to ensure both.
I observed my black comets this morning and there are fewer white spots that appear faded. My husband said dont add any fish until next year. Maybe that would be best for now. This way I can read Dave's recommended book and make better choices.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

I wasn't expecting a reply from Brian with Brian's Aquarium Care that soon or at all. This is was his take:
Honestly with it being a pond I don't see the point in quarantine. You can quarantine for months and a heron could bring something in on its feet. I wouldn't go through the hassle and risk.

I do not agree with this at all but again to each his own.

I understand it can be a hassle to quarantine but I feel it's much more of a hassle to "fix" something wrong in the pond rather than a smaller more controlled tank.

I wonder what he means by "wouldn't go through the hassle and risk". What's the risk of doing quarantine?

 

[bettasngoldfish]

And remember the people at the store don't care if you quarantine because they count on the fact that you will be back to buy more fish, medications, etc. and for them that's a good thing.

 

[jbjabber]

Wow! What an experience you've had. I think your husband might be right to suggest waiting until next year to add fish.
I agree with the stress comment. I'm in the landscaping business and see all kinds of infestations. You can be sure if a plant is stressed by drought or overheated something will come along to try to decompose it. Maybe I should get a shade cloth for my pond huh?

 

[Dave 54]

I wasn't expecting a reply from Brian with Brian's Aquarium Care that soon or at all. This is was his take:

"Nothing you described should have caused such a sudden issue on its own. I think what may have been the problem was the water wasn't good. If the fish were already stressed than anything, even something weak like ich, could get a strong hold. In my experience the illnesses you describe aren't potent on their own, the fish have to be stressed.
Although your fish thrive overall, they could do much better. The ideal situation for a pond is a clean out in the spring and fall with weekly water changes in between. The UV bulb should be replaced every spring. The heat ring for gas exchange is essential for them to last throughout the winter.
I think of ich, or something else, as always being present. It may not actually be present, but if you stress fish out they will come down with something. It may not be ich, it may be a fungus, a bacteria, or some parasite they have always had in their intestines but they kept it under control.
Honestly with it being a pond I don't see the point in quarantine. You can quarantine for months and a heron could bring something in on its feet. I wouldn't go through the hassle and risk. You can do a few water changes in the next week and start adding fish."
Brian expertise is indoor aquariums but common sense that outdoor ponds are closed environments too. The gist of his reply and this forums have three things in common.
1. Good water quality is thee primary requirement for disease free fish.
2. Healthy fish (not stressed) can avoid illness based on water quality and good nutrition.
3. Their human caretaker has to ensure both.
I observed my black comets this morning and there are fewer white spots that appear faded. My husband said dont add any fish until next year. Maybe that would be best for now. This way I can read Dave's recommended book and make better choices.

Rose when Val and I first started out on our fishy journey I killed around about 15 goldfish bcause quite frankly at that time I didnt know what I was doing , the fish shops didnt tell anyone about diseases parasites and viruses if your fish died you went out and repeated the same mistake again and again not Quarentining our fish.
Then Val bought me the Salamander Manuel of fish Health ( now Interpet ).
Things changed overnight we dropped the goldfish and fell in love with koi , 27 years later we still love them and have educated ourselves about all aspects of fish health, fish diseases fish behavour, fish pathology , koi keeping is a great hobby we really love it but theres a whole new world waiting for you , like anethatising fish, minor operations , microscope work etc
Once your in you just keep learning

Dave

 

[addy1]

I did it the easy way, stock the pond with fish I like, buy no more, let them breed and make more. No fear of disease brought in.

 

[Dave 54]

I did it the easy way, stock the pond with fish I like, buy no more, let them breed and make more. No fear of disease brought in.

Sounds a logical move addy however there is the introduction of parasites via other vectors you must take into consideration .
The same can be said about viruses being introduced , then you have transfers from plants introduced into the pond .

Dave

 

[addy1]

Very true, at least without adding fish one factor removed.