Took over existing pond, fighting algae for weeks now

HTH

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HARO said:
Where do you GET this info? :dunno:
John
OBSERVATION !

Based on research I have read I have since revised my opinion, but roots in the water as far as I can tell are far more effective. Think about something like iris or rush planted in clay, which is often recommended here. They clay is a fairly effective barrier between the nutrients in the water and the roots.

I had a good sized pond with lots of water lilies and a good fish population. The lilies that busted their pots went nuts, the ones that did not did very poorly. Nitrates in the water dropped in the spring and lilies bloomed like crazy. When the nitrates were gone the lilies mostly stopped blooming. So at least lilies are better at absorbing nutrients through the roots. One could argue that the effect was entirely due to being pot bound but you still have to fertilize potted plants in ponds with high nitrates so that does not fly.
 

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Fact: Algae means you have excess nutrients. I never bother with uv since that just masks your symptoms. If you kill the algae, then the excess nutrients will just poison your fish. Best get rid of your nutrients, which is the cause of your algae problem.

1) You must decrease the amount of food you feed your fish.
2) Do a few 30% water changes. You don't need to pay someone $750 to do that.
3) Add plants. Plants will take away the nutrients your algae need.

I found the easiest way is to add a temporary plant scrubber. Get a floating ring and add duckweek to it. The duckweek will multiply and suck up the nutrients. Once the floating ring is full, remove some of the duckweed, repeat.
 
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JohnHuff said:
Fact: Algae means you have excess nutrients. I never bother with uv since that just masks your symptoms. If you kill the algae, then the excess nutrients will just poison your fish. Best get rid of your nutrients, which is the cause of your algae problem.

1) You must decrease the amount of food you feed your fish.
2) Do a few 30% water changes. You don't need to pay someone $750 to do that.
3) Add plants. Plants will take away the nutrients your algae need.

I found the easiest way is to add a temporary plant scrubber. Get a floating ring and add duckweek to it. The duckweek will multiply and suck up the nutrients. Once the floating ring is full, remove some of the duckweed, repeat.
I need to give the floating plant scrubber a try. Anyone have any suggestions for floaters that are legal in Texas? Can't have duckweed, water lettuce, or hyacinth. :confused:
 

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sewsheknits said:
I need to give the floating plant scrubber a try. Anyone have any suggestions for floaters that are legal in Texas? Can't have duckweed, water lettuce, or hyacinth. :confused:
Parrot feather and Azola work out. The parrot feather will initially need something to sit on.


And, oh, you just got me riled up, but going to bite my tongue. Just gonna say I know exactly what you are saying and definitely understand the aggravation you are sharing. The regulation is slightly more reasonable there if ya live in east Texas due to the surrounding wetlands, but definitely not reasonable in the semi-arid desert region of the true north Texas here up northwest of Amarillo, where standing water is a not natural thing. However, it is completely fine for these authorities to introduce salt cedars and other invasive plants up here, which now has gotten out of hand, drying up the very few small creeks we had for ranchers, and they're paying (i.e., the rancher's cattle and using our tax dollars) to clean it up

A green house buddy of mine was selling some water lettuce and hycacinth until the authorities showed up with a citation and mobile incinerator rig. Guess what happened next...

I suggest the black market (aka, an Internet business) or cross state lines to get some duckweed, water lettuce, or hyacinth. Ponding can make you turn into an outlaw!! ;)

Just be mindful about proper disposal so to not allow things to get out of control.
 
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crsublette said:
Parrot feather and Azola work out. The parrot feather will initially need something to sit on.


And, oh, you just got me riled up, but going to bite my tongue. Just gonna say I know exactly what you are saying and definitely understand the aggravation you are sharing. The regulation is slightly more reasonable there if ya live in east Texas due to the surrounding wetlands, but definitely not reasonable in the semi-arid desert region of the true north Texas here up northwest of Amarillo, where standing water is a not natural thing. However, it is completely fine for these authorities to introduce salt cedars and other invasive plants up here, which now has gotten out of hand, drying up the very few small creeks we had for ranchers, and they're paying (i.e., the rancher's cattle and using our tax dollars) to clean it up

A green house buddy of mine was selling some water lettuce and hycacinth until the authorities showed up with a citation and mobile incinerator rig. Guess what happened next...

I suggest the black market (aka, an Internet business) or cross state lines to get some duckweed, water lettuce, or hyacinth. Ponding can make you turn into an outlaw!! ;)

Just be mindful about proper disposal so to not allow things to get out of control.
Thank you for the suggestions! Think I'll stick to the parrot feather for now. I'm nervous enough about taking care of the fish and I've already had to call animal control for a Bobcat that decided to stake out my front yard. I'm sure I already made the local Police Blotter for that.

I take the little snippets of parrot feather that land in my skimmer and tuck them in the rocks on the waterfall along with some Baccopia (sp?) that I hope will root. I'm also on the lookout for some watercress to start in a floating ring.

I feel like I'm losing the algae battle. There has to be something wrong with my filtration system. I'm going to take the UV down today and try to clean the quartz sleeve. If that doesn't do it, I may replace the ballast. I so should have done the research and included pond maintenance in my calculations for the offer we made on this house! ;)
 

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grasses work great ,I have fountain grass ,lemon grass and another kind that had no name on it in the dieing plant section of lowes.I found this guy on my screen
 

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crsublette

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sewsheknits said:
Thank you for the suggestions! Think I'll stick to the parrot feather for now. I'm nervous enough about taking care of the fish and I've already had to call animal control for a Bobcat that decided to stake out my front yard. I'm sure I already made the local Police Blotter for that.

I take the little snippets of parrot feather that land in my skimmer and tuck them in the rocks on the waterfall along with some Baccopia (sp?) that I hope will root. I'm also on the lookout for some watercress to start in a floating ring.

1) I feel like I'm losing the algae battle. There has to be something wrong with my filtration system. I'm going to take the UV down today and try to clean the quartz sleeve. If that doesn't do it, I may replace the ballast. I so should have done the research and included pond maintenance in my calculations for the offer we made on this house! ;)

Crazy about the bobcat. A portion of my farm is near a canyon, with quite a few caves, and bobcats reside there. I was on my usual routine driving toward a sprinkler so to walk the spinkler to look for problems, but, as I was approaching, a "dog looking animal" was near the field. Once I got about within around 200 feet of it, it sprinted across the road and it was a rather huge cat, that is bobcat that ran into my corn field, which was where I was about to walk the sprinkler and the corn was about 8 foot tall so visibility is severely hindered. I stopped and thought for a while... " I think I might wait a day or so till I walk into the corn field so hopefully I avoid encountering that fella in the corn field ". ;)


1) I feel like I'm losing the algae battle. There has to be something wrong with my filtration system. I'm going to take the UV down today and try to clean the quartz sleeve. If that doesn't do it, I may replace the ballast. I so should have done the research and included pond maintenance in my calculations for the offer we made on this house! ;)

It's a constant battle with algae. With algae, you only win battles and never will win the war. Since in our context of an outdoor pond, all we can do is control the algae rather than outright eliminate it.

It is much like maintaining a weed free, pristine lawn. The "lawn" is your pond. You can do everything to make the lawn lush and healthy, but still wild grasses and dandelions will invade the yard. So, due diligence must be taken to maintain a weed free lawn. Algae is a weed since our pond is more of a luxury to us rather than for the fish. Sure, just as with weeds in a lawn, algae has its role in supplementing the environment by providing nutrition and acting as an bio-filter. However, just as a noxious weeds, algae will eventually completely take over the pond so to provide an enivronment for itself to thrive or to provide an environment for other undesireable critters to reside.

Algae is the noxious weed of a pond and there are all sorts of algae species out there. Some weeds, like dandelions, look quite nice; however, if your entire lawn was of that weed, then it starts looking less nice.

In lawns, we must continually spray the weeds, put out pre-emergence that are germinating inhibitors or root inhibitors, and fertilize the lawn to keep it lush. The concept of controlling weeds in a lawn applies to controlling algae in a pond. Also, just as with weeds, there is always an algae species that can grow in any environment.


To keep our pond "lush like a pond", then we increase the various modes of improved mechanized bio-filtration and increase plant density and increased water aeration and circulation.

For pre-emergence that are germinator inhibitors or root inhibitors, then properly installed UVs or antibiotics are implemented.

For the spot killing of algae, as done with weeds in a lawn, then there are the various microbicides (such as AlgaeFIx) and organic oxidizers (such as food grade, grocery store hydrogen peroxide).

As with any prevention of a noxious weed or plant, proper prevention management practices work with nature, not against nature, and should be followed, which I believe prevention involves everything I listed above.


I have never seen a pond naturally have zero algae just as I have never seen a yard, when left to its own devices of nature, have zero wild grasses or dandelions.


Personally, here are my recommendations

1) Maintain a healthy pond - Follow the maintenance recommendations mentioned in the thread, remedial chemistry and water treatment. Also, increase the various modes of improved mechanized bio-filtration and increase plant density.

2) Pre-emergence, inhibitor control of algae - Properlly install a UV sterilizer. If can't afford a sterilizer, then a higher powered than usual UV clarifier. For a quick discussion talking about UV sterilizer and clarifiers, then checkout the Pentair dicusson on UV sterilizers.

3) Spot killing of algae - This is a weekly or bi-weekly regiment. Know exactly the gallons of your pond, within +/-50~100 gallons variance, and then properly follow the instructions for the appropriate product.

AlgaeFix is a microbicide that attacks the cell walls of the algae and some bacteria. This is essentially a non-selective microbicide. So, be sure to know your pond's volume, and properly follow instructions.

To use the 3% generic hydrogen peroxide solution, bought from the grocery store with zero additives, then just dose the pond by 18 to 32 ounces per 1,000 gallons. This product is an organic oxidizer and its effectiveness really depends on the volume of organics present in the water. If the organic volume is quite high, then you will have to use a higher dosage and same vice versa. However, particular plants are more susceptible to being harmed by an oxidizer, which some may turn yellow or even get killed by the stuff. So, start with a low dose to see how your fish and plants will react, and then increase the dose if you feel comfortable doing so. I would also recommend going to a pool store, or online like Amazon, to get a low concentration hydrogen peroxide test kit, which might be the test strips or a reagent test kit. The point about testing the water for peroxide is to ensure there is no presence of it lingering in the pond longer than 24 hours; if there is, then do some water changes to dilute its presence.

To spot kill algae on waterfalls, then you can purchase a much higher peroxide concentration product, between 22~32%, at a vetinarian product retail store, put it in a spray bottle, turn off the water fall or stream, spray it down, wait an hour, then scrub or power wash the algae off, and turn on the water.


Instead of hydrogen peroxide, you can use an extremely strong organic oxidizer such as Pottasium Permanganate, with an acronym of " PP ", which is safe to fish and plants if paying extremely close to gram measurements, extremely important to know your pond's gallons, and extremely important to follow instructions.

PP can be bought at The Chemistry Store by the pounds but, if fish are present, then we are talking dosage measurements in grams and TEAspoons. A digital scale is very important to use in measurements.

Here's a good demonstrational and instructional thread talking about its use in kill string algae. Life and Times of String Algae in My Pond. Plants are much more tolerant to PP so highers doses can be used if no fish are present.

Other interesting threads about proper PP usage and warnings:

PP question
PP dosage?
PP dosing calculations
Potassium Permanganate calculator

Personally, since I have not used it yet, I am still nervous about using the stuff, but it is a common practice. Just be careful with the stuff and do not use it if you are in any way not comfortable with what you're doing.

PP is extremely cheap and a little bit stretches out a very long time, but extreme attention and caution must be used when using it.
 
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crsublette said:
Crazy about the bobcat. A portion of my farm is near a canyon, with quite a few caves, and bobcats reside there. I was on my usual routine driving toward a sprinkler so to walk the spinkler to look for problems, but, as I was approaching, a "dog looking animal" was near the field. Once I got about within around 200 feet of it, it sprinted across the road and it was a rather huge cat, that is bobcat that ran into my corn field, which was where I was about to walk the sprinkler and the corn was about 8 foot tall so visibility is severely hindered. I stopped and thought for a while... " I think I might wait a day or so till I walk into the corn field so hopefully I avoid encountering that fella in the corn field ". ;)


1) I feel like I'm losing the algae battle. There has to be something wrong with my filtration system. I'm going to take the UV down today and try to clean the quartz sleeve. If that doesn't do it, I may replace the ballast. I so should have done the research and included pond maintenance in my calculations for the offer we made on this house! ;)

It's a constant battle with algae. With algae, you only win battles and never will win the war. Since in our context of an outdoor pond, all we can do is control the algae rather than outright eliminate it.

It is much like maintaining a weed free, pristine lawn. The "lawn" is your pond. You can do everything to make the lawn lush and healthy, but still wild grasses and dandelions will invade the yard. So, due diligence must be taken to maintain a weed free lawn. Algae is a weed since our pond is more of a luxury to us rather than for the fish. Sure, just as with weeds in a lawn, algae has its role in supplementing the environment by providing nutrition and acting as an bio-filter. However, just as a noxious weeds, algae will eventually completely take over the pond so to provide an enivronment for itself to thrive or to provide an environment for other undesireable critters to reside.

Algae is the noxious weed of a pond and there are all sorts of algae species out there. Some weeds, like dandelions, look quite nice; however, if your entire lawn was of that weed, then it starts looking less nice.

In lawns, we must continually spray the weeds, put out pre-emergence that are germinating inhibitors or root inhibitors, and fertilize the lawn to keep it lush. The concept of controlling weeds in a lawn applies to controlling algae in a pond. Also, just as with weeds, there is always an algae species that can grow in any environment.


To keep our pond "lush like a pond", then we increase the various modes of improved mechanized bio-filtration and increase plant density and increased water aeration and circulation.

For pre-emergence that are germinator inhibitors or root inhibitors, then properly installed UVs or antibiotics are implemented.

For the spot killing of algae, as done with weeds in a lawn, then there are the various microbicides (such as AlgaeFIx) and organic oxidizers (such as food grade, grocery store hydrogen peroxide).

As with any prevention of a noxious weed or plant, proper prevention management practices work with nature, not against nature, and should be followed, which I believe prevention involves everything I listed above.


I have never seen a pond naturally have zero algae just as I have never seen a yard, when left to its own devices of nature, have zero wild grasses or dandelions.


Personally, here are my recommendations

1) Maintain a healthy pond - Follow the maintenance recommendations mentioned in the thread, remedial chemistry and water treatment. Also, increase the various modes of improved mechanized bio-filtration and increase plant density.

2) Pre-emergence, inhibitor control of algae - Properlly install a UV sterilizer. If can't afford a sterilizer, then a higher powered than usual UV clarifier. For a quick discussion talking about UV sterilizer and clarifiers, then checkout the Pentair dicusson on UV sterilizers.

3) Spot killing of algae - This is a weekly or bi-weekly regiment. Know exactly the gallons of your pond, within +/-50~100 gallons variance, and then properly follow the instructions for the appropriate product.

AlgaeFix is a microbicide that attacks the cell walls of the algae and some bacteria. This is essentially a non-selective microbicide. So, be sure to know your pond's volume, and properly follow instructions.

To use the 3% generic hydrogen peroxide solution, bought from the grocery store with zero additives, then just dose the pond by 18 to 32 ounces per 1,000 gallons. This product is an organic oxidizer and its effectiveness really depends on the volume of organics present in the water. If the organic volume is quite high, then you will have to use a higher dosage and same vice versa. However, particular plants are more susceptible to being harmed by an oxidizer, which some may turn yellow or even get killed by the stuff. So, start with a low dose to see how your fish and plants will react, and then increase the dose if you feel comfortable doing so. I would also recommend going to a pool store, or online like Amazon, to get a low concentration hydrogen peroxide test kit, which might be the test strips or a reagent test kit. The point about testing the water for peroxide is to ensure there is no presence of it lingering in the pond longer than 24 hours; if there is, then do some water changes to dilute its presence.

To spot kill algae on waterfalls, then you can purchase a much higher peroxide concentration product, between 22~32%, at a vetinarian product retail store, put it in a spray bottle, turn off the water fall or stream, spray it down, wait an hour, then scrub or power wash the algae off, and turn on the water.


Instead of hydrogen peroxide, you can use an extremely strong organic oxidizer such as Pottasium Permanganate, with an acronym of " PP ", which is safe to fish and plants if paying extremely close to gram measurements, extremely important to know your pond's gallons, and extremely important to follow instructions.

PP can be bought at The Chemistry Store by the pounds but, if fish are present, then we are talking dosage measurements in grams and TEAspoons. A digital scale is very important to use in measurements.

Here's a good demonstrational and instructional thread talking about its use in kill string algae. Life and Times of String Algae in My Pond. Plants are much more tolerant to PP so highers doses can be used if no fish are present.

Other interesting threads about proper PP usage and warnings:

PP question
PP dosage?
PP dosing calculations
Potassium Permanganate calculator

Personally, since I have not used it yet, I am still nervous about using the stuff, but it is a common practice. Just be careful with the stuff and do not use it if you are in any way not comfortable with what you're doing.

PP is extremely cheap and a little bit stretches out a very long time, but extreme attention and caution must be used when using it.
Thank you for all of the information on preventing/treating algae. So much to learn! When the sun starts to go down and the UV sterilizer is in the shade, i plan to take it apart, clean the quartz sleeve, and check the ballast. I lucked out at the grocery store last night and was able to pick up a package of watercress that was in great shape (roots and all) so I tucked it in a floating ring under the falls. Hopefully, that will help when it begins to grow. I've added some barley that is mixed in with some Beneficial Bacteria (I've seen some don't believe in adding this?). I also have set up a trashcan filter to help my main filter out. I have some AlgaeFix but am hesitant to use it.

Trying to be patient...

I really do appreciate all of your help!

**Almost forgot to say that I'd have stayed out of that cornfield for a very long time! Those cats are scary.
 
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This went a bit off topic, but I'll make an update with our pond.

There are absolutely no good guides for how often to feed fish (opinions range from 2x/day to bi-monthly). We stopped feeding them for three months, kept cleaning the pond with weekly water transfers, and it just kept getting worse. Within a week of cleaning off the waterfall, there would be 1/2" of solid algae caked on it.

We finally just decided to flush and scrub the pond, regardless of if it killed everything off. We transplanted the fish, vacuumed out the pond and all the debris, and powerwashed it. After transplanting the fish back in, we only lost two goldfish. We've had a bit of algae creep again in the media filter in the waterfall tank, which I'll just have to scrub clean every weekend.

So, in the end, a semi success. We're getting better at it. I just really wish the old owner would have left us some advice.

PHOTO_20131005_113842.jpg


PHOTO_20131005_163723.jpg
 

JohnHuff

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Thanks for the update. I don't know why I didn't mention this in my first post, but I think you also need mechanical filtration. Mechanical filtration is kind of like a sieve. It will trap any solids (including algae) in the water, and solids in the water is what is causing the cloudiness. I have 4 pre-filters in my pond and they keep the water clear.
 
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I will be interested to see if your pond stays clean. This time of year, the temps are getting cooler, so that will be a benefit for you; however, scrubbing off everything from your liner and waterfall may make you feel better, like the pond water will be cleaner, when in fact that could be hurting more than helping. Your fish now have no built up algae to feed on during the winter months. Green algae on liner is a good thing. String algae grows usually very fast, in strings, long and skinny, not spongey. The stuff on your waterfall looked more like a spongey type of algae. I agree, I would rather see my pretty stones on the waterfall, but leaving the algae there will help filter the water as it runs down, I believe.
The reason for the question about what you used to rinse your filter is IF you had used city water, with chlorine in it, you would have been killing all the good bacteria that was growing on the filter. You, and I, are lucky in that we have well water, which doesn't have anything added to it, and we can rinse our filters. Don't get rid of everything on your filters, just rinse off the muck, so the filter can gather more! The spongey green stuff on your waterfall is not appealing to your eye, but if you want crystal clear water and no algae whatsoever, you may have to get rid of your fish and plants, and just use chemicals to kill it all. The eco system for fish, plants and anything else that comes to your pond has to be managed, and part of a healthy pond is algae. As everyone has pointed out, shading your pond with plants that do double duty - shade and nutrient use - helps more than any UV light.
If you can set up something to hold a piece of simple quilt batting at the top or bottom of your waterfall, it will catch all the fine stuff that is clouding your water, and help clear it as well. I know you now have drained and refilled your pond, but beware ... you will likely have similar problems again, if not this fall, then likely next spring. If you stay on top of it and have plants up and growing as soon as warmer weather hits in the spring, you will be ahead of the game. You didn't have that knowledge this spring, but you have it now. :cheerful:
As far as feeding, once the water gets below about 55 degrees, either stop feeding altogether, or feed a "cold weather" food that is comprised of wheat germ and other nutrients to help the fish get ready for winter. Even that cold weather food is stopped when the water temp goes below I think it's 45 or 50 degrees. Same in the spring, wait until the water temp is above 55 consistently before you begin feeding regular food. The bad thing also about removing all the algae from the liner is that this would have been your fish's food source this winter, IMO, and now that is gone.
Another thing to elaborate on is cleaning the gunk off the bottom. I think most net out the stuff that settles at the bottom of the pond in the spring and late fall. If you have trees close that are dumping leaves into your pond, and if you don't have a skimmer, you may need to do this pretty often this time of year. But, the stuff that gathers at the bottom can also harbor good bacteria, so don't worry if there is some left when you net out the leaves. And, someone asked you how big your trees are and how close. There are some trees that give off a tannin that makes the water brown. Could this have been part of your cloudy water problem? Probably not in the spring, unless there were lots of leaves in the bottom from last fall.
But, in the end, your pond looks great, and I wish you lots of luck in keeping it that way. Just some more things to think about. Welcome to the Forum! :blueflower:
 
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I'm bringing this post back up from the dead. We did have issues keeping it that clean, but have worked out a quiet balance. We've added more plant life (and need to add more). And do more regular cleaning of the waterfall and filters, while doing the same water transfers.

Additionally, we lost about 20 fish over the spring and early summer from blue herons and probably also from a snapping turtle we unfortunately played host to for a month.

It'll never be perfectly clear, but we've found a level that we're comfortable with. If it starts to get cloudier, we add more filter media and do more cleaning for a week, then it gets back to normal. Much of it was simply just _learning_ all the variables that go into play. That simply takes time, and the unfortunate loss of a koi here and there.

An updated picture from last week (and a cypress plant that the fish pulled over to snack on. Some water plants were recently pulled and we're about to replace them).

IMAG0314.jpg


A closer look - they love to eat the plants.
IMAG0300.jpg


We're going to add more plants once I find a good way to place them. Either we get all bottom plants, or I find a crafty way to prop them up (like the cypress there on cinder blocks - unsightly).

In the end, the advice laid out here all worked. However, it just took many months of me being comfortable with it's ecological rhythm to realize when and how to do them. Thank you, everyone.
 

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once plants grow they will clean the water and cut the nutrients from fish waste and seems like you are finding your balance .Looks great oh by the way love your hosta's in there
 
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