water changes

Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Baltimore Maryland
Hi chaps

I'm fairly new to the pond hobby....
Have a couple of questions..
My pond is about 8000 gals, have 2 Skippy type filters, 1 150 gal and 1 300 gal. I have about 40 fish from some small orf to a big 2 foot koi . I'm running 3 55 Jebao UVs.
I'm not getting any algae, but do experience murky water. I think this may be because I feed the 300 gal filter from 2 pumps sitting on the bottom, sucking up fish poo and other stuff in the water... could this be my problem??
My question is, to clear my water and make it clear I'm doing very big water changes about every 2 weeks. I'm on well water and will typically leave the garden hose running all day (about 8 hrs) this certainly clears the water, I'm guessing that would probably be about an 80% water change. Is that bad? Am I stressing my fish??

Any ideas advice would be great fully received. ..

TIA

Regards. ..
 

addy1

water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
44,413
Reaction score
29,200
Location
Frederick, Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
Our pond is on a well, for me it would be a concern to change over the water that often, our ph is 5.5 or so.

How long has your pond been set up? Mine took a month or so to settle in and become nice clear water. Do you have filter material in your filters that will collect the finer stuff floating in your pond. You might be doing a pond start over with that big of water change that often, notice the might lol. With each start over it has to go through the new pond syndrome.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
13,102
Reaction score
13,445
Location
Northern IL
Showcase(s):
1
That is a pretty dramatic change. Maybe you could solve your problem by getting the pump up off the bottom a bit? Although if it's feeding your filter that should be a good thing, right? Why isn't your filter catching the debris?
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Baltimore Maryland
Thanks for the input chaps....
The pond has been up and running for a while, this will be my second winter season.
Over this weekend I turned off on of the pumps feeding the bigger filter and moved the other one off the bottom.
But this didn't seem to make any difference to the clarity, perhaps needs a week or two to settle and see any change in clarity. I did the last water change Friday, Friday night very clear, Saturday quite clear, Sunday night starting to get a bit murky...
I don't have much filter matting type media in the filters just bioballs and some of the blue high density Matala mats. Could this be part of the issue??
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
You might want to think about a better pre-filter before the water enters the pump. This would be easily resolved with an above ground pump sucking in water after a settlement chamber, except the chamber would have to be installed at pond water level.

For a submersible pump, which is what I think you have, you could do what I do whenever I use my submersible pump.

I do not use the filter socks that fit over the submersible pumps. These clogged way too fast for me.

What I did as a submersible pump pre-filter is .... 1) obtain a sturdy container of some sort (i used a irrigation valve box). 2) drill holes all around the box, as many as you can tolerate drilling without losing structural strength. 3) place submersible pump in container. 3) get some netting (i used the type of pond netting used to keep out leaves) and "fluff" up the netting so it is like a pillow. 4) place this netting in the container all around the pump. 5) close container, which should have holes all over it. 6) place a 2~4 inch layer of 1 inch river rock on top of container. 7) place a single layer of larger river rock above this.

Now, if you have to service your submersible pump, then it might be too much of a pain to do this, but I have been using my submersible for about 3 years now and never once had to service it or check on it.

My submersible has never got clogged even when there was a thick mat of leaves over the top of the river rock.


This might help you with your water clarify. I am under the impression that your pumps are chopping up stuff thus the reason for the constant murkiness
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
Hi chaps

I'm fairly new to the pond hobby....
Have a couple of questions..
My pond is about 8000 gals, have 2 Skippy type filters, 1 150 gal and 1 300 gal. I have about 40 fish from some small orf to a big 2 foot koi . I'm running 3 55 Jebao UVs.
I'm not getting any algae, but do experience murky water. I think this may be because I feed the 300 gal filter from 2 pumps sitting on the bottom, sucking up fish poo and other stuff in the water... could this be my problem??
1) My question is, to clear my water and make it clear I'm doing very big water changes about every 2 weeks. I'm on well water and will typically leave the garden hose running all day (about 8 hrs) this certainly clears the water, I'm guessing that would probably be about an 80% water change. Is that bad? Am I stressing my fish??

Any ideas advice would be great fully received. ..

TIA

Regards. ..


1) My question is, to clear my water and make it clear I'm doing very big water changes about every 2 weeks. I'm on well water and will typically leave the garden hose running all day (about 8 hrs) this certainly clears the water, I'm guessing that would probably be about an 80% water change. Is that bad? Am I stressing my fish??

Nah, no harm at all. There are folk that do 80% water changes each day, that is using what is called "flow through" water change systems, and never have problems ammonia (etc) whenever they needed to stop doing the water changes.

The only bad, stressful issue is if these changes cause a sudden change, such as if your pH changes quite a bit between those 2 weeks and the same with water temperature.

Generally, doing large water changes like this during the Winter for an outdoor pond is not good because you are potentially causing a quite significant water temperature swing, which really throws fish out of whack and (if swing is large enough) could kill them.
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Baltimore Maryland
Thanks Charles

I'm quite worried now, not sure what I have done, but I'm loosing my Orfs, 3 have died on me since Monday. The rest of the fish are not behaving normal, just sitting motionless at the bottom of the pond in the deepest part.
Checked water levels, all seem OK except PH is down to 6.3 from an average of 7.6ish. No Ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.
I have added some baking soda to try and stabilize/bring up PH, but although 6.3 is low and not best from an average of 7.6, that still not fatal though, right??

Any advice, gratefully received

TIA

Jon
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
Due to your description, sounds like there was too fast of a change in the water chemistry allowed to happen. When this happens, then the fish will usually lay lethargically at the bottom. Eventually, they will acclimate. However, if the fish were already sick, then the change could be fatal.

My concern with a pH that low is the potential of algae, fish respiration, rain, plant decomposition, and other elements very easily causing a diurnal pH swing, that is a changing of pH between dawn and dusk. If the diurnal pH swing is large enough, then this could make the fish lay lethargically at the bottom or even be fatal to already ill fish.
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Baltimore Maryland
Lost another 2 Orfe's today, PH was at 7.0 this morning (8:00am) is now at 7.30 (11:30am eastern time).
Not added anything to the water, everything the same as yesterday.
Yesterday after reading Charles's post I added 2lbs of baking soda, this OK for a 6 - 8000 gal pond??

Other fish still lethargic, but less so than yesterday. Still not feeding well, although, ironically the remaining Orfe's do seem to be feeding and are less lethargic than the rest...

I've lost 6 Orfe so far this week, 4 juvenile and 2 about 9in. No signs of parasite or fungal, they look, to me, completely healthy. I've not lost any other fish this year.

Am I doing anything wrong?
Any help/ideas/advice would be very very gratefully received!!

Thanks
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
Lost another 2 Orfe's today, PH was at 7.0 this morning (8:00am) is now at 7.30 (11:30am eastern time).
Not added anything to the water, everything the same as yesterday.
Yesterday after reading Charles's post I added 2lbs of baking soda, this OK for a 6 - 8000 gal pond??

Other fish still lethargic, but less so than yesterday. Still not feeding well, although, ironically the remaining Orfe's do seem to be feeding and are less lethargic than the rest...

I've lost 6 Orfe so far this week, 4 juvenile and 2 about 9in. No signs of parasite or fungal, they look, to me, completely healthy. I've not lost any other fish this year.

Am I doing anything wrong?
Any help/ideas/advice would be very very gratefully received!!

Thanks

Stop feeding! ... until the alkalinity is risen and the pH stays relatively stable. If your source water is relatively acidic, then probably do as little water changes as possible or only do one or two major water changes each once in the Spring and in the Fall.

Sorry, but wow. You are having some serious diurnal pH swing occurrences there if there is a 0.30 pH change within 3.5 hours.

I guarantee you this is why you are losing fish and the rest are acting lethargic. Yeah, as is talked about in the thread "What is a safe rate to raise pH", you need to slowly raise your alkalinity so to stop these diurnal pH swings. Increasing aeration and increasing water circulation, so to expel carbon dioxide out of the water faster, will also help reduce these diurnal pH swings. Also, remove as much plant decay out of the water will help as well. However, the best route to stop the pH swing is to raise your alkalinity. As mentioned in the just referenced thread, personally, I was only raise the alkalinity 1 degree (or dKH or 17ppm alkalinity) once every 24 hours.


Is it 6,000 or 8,000 gallons?!? This is incredibly important when utilizing baking soda to increase alkalinity. You need to get a better estimate of your pond volume, check out post#13 in thread Peroxide to learn the 2 methods you can use to figure the pond volume.

After I inserted the amount into the calculator, I thnk 2 pounds of baking soda is fine. Personally, for me, a little on the heavy side for the pond volume you gave me, but should be fine.

Just be sure you add it to a bucket first to make sure it dissolves a bit and then add this bucket around the pond's parameter or in the area of moving water.


According to the Alkalinity - KH Calculator...

If your pond was 6,000 gallons, then only use 20 ounces (or 1.25 pounds) of baking soda to raise the water 1 dKH.

If your pond was 8,000 gallons, then only use 28 ounces (or 1.70 pounds) of baking soda to raise the water 1 dKH.


So....

Your 2 pounds of baking soda either added 1.6 dKH (or 29ppm) alkalinity, if the pond was 6,000 gallons....Or ... 1.2 dKH (or 21ppm) if the pond was 8,000 gallons.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Baltimore Maryland
OK.... Checked the water again at 7:30 this morning at 7.4 PH all other readings Amm, Trite, Trate at 0
KH is at 89.5.
Also checked my well water, this was at 6.0 PH (which I'm assuming could be even lower as my test kit starts at 6!) and I could not get a reading on the KH with a normal 5ml sample, If I use 15ml sample it takes 3 drops to change from blue to yellow, dose this mean I divide the result by 3?? Which would bring the reading to 17.9.
Lost the last Orfe as well, no other fatalities yet....
Should I add more baking soda to stabilize the PH, will this stress the fish more? Should I back off and not fiddle about any more, and hope I don't loose any more fish?
Is my well water a big issue? It seems to be very acidic.
I'm just hoping and praying a haven't lost everything through doing those stupid big water changes.
 

crsublette

coyotes call me Charles
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
1,100
Location
Dalhart Texas
Hardiness Zone
6a
OK.... Checked the water again at 7:30 this morning at 7.4 PH all other readings Amm, Trite, Trate at 0
KH is at 89.5.
Also checked my well water, this was at 6.0 PH (which I'm assuming could be even lower as my test kit starts at 6!) and I could not get a reading on the KH with a normal 5ml sample, If I use 15ml sample it takes 3 drops to change from blue to yellow, dose this mean I divide the result by 3?? Which would bring the reading to 17.9.
Lost the last Orfe as well, no other fatalities yet....
Should I add more baking soda to stabilize the PH, will this stress the fish more? Should I back off and not fiddle about any more, and hope I don't loose any more fish?
Is my well water a big issue? It seems to be very acidic.
I'm just hoping and praying a haven't lost everything through doing those stupid big water changes.

Yeah, since you've been raising the alkalinity and then adding your acidic (low KH) source water, then this likely stressed the fish. So, as I mentioned in post#6, there is quite a bit of changing going on here in addition to your diurnal pH changes. A KH reading of 1 dKH (or 17.9) can mean two things: 1) you have a 17.9 ppm alkalinity; 2) you have no registrable alkalinity. This is where the digital alkalinity instruments come into play, which is not necessary for us in our context unless it is just something you want to do. Most likely, if the test kit registers 1 dKH, then there is no registrable alkalinity.

If this well water is your only source of water, then I would only do big water changes once or twice a year. Using this water for top offs, due to evaporation, will alone eat a noticeable amount of alkalinity if your "top off" volume is quite high.

An alkalinity of 5dKH (that is 89.5 ppm) is not high enough to stop the diurnal pH changes. A heavy residue of algae or heavy residue of plant decomposition or heavy rains or significant water "top offs" from the acid well water or increase in fish density will allow these changes. However, with a 5dKH, excellent water circulation and excellent aeration will significantly help since it is the carbon dioxide fluctuations that is the primary culprit of these pH changes and the water circulates/aeration helps to rapidly release the carbon dioxide before it has a chance to significantly impact the water pH. The amount of water circulation and aeration is entirely dependent on the pond and is different for everyone.

If you want to permanently stop the diurnal pH changes, then an easy fix is to increase the alkalinity to 7dKH (125ppm) or higher. At around 7dKH, the pH will be around 8.3~8.5 (+/- 0.2 variance or so) and any alkalinity levels higher than this will remain around 8.5 (+/- 0.2 variance or so). The only time the pH will will go higher than this is due to a lower free calcium concentration (relative to your carbonate presence) or due to water additives. Also, good to use a presence of a slow release calcium carbonate product to you help maintain, which is sometimes not always enough so you might still need to use baking soda. My previous posts in the threads of this Chemistry sub-forum talks further about all of this in detail and how to approach it.

Once your alkalinity is 7dKH, then the general rule of "1 dKH every 24 hours" no longer applies. So, if your alkalinity is at least 7dKH and you know a very heavy rain storm is coming or before you leave for a long vacation, then put in enough baking soda for around 3dKH or more.

My source water alkalinity hovers around 12~15dKH (214~267 ppm) and the fish show no issues with this high alkalinity.

Only time to be concerned is dependent on fish species and if they can tolerate will enough a pH of around 8.5.

If you want to obtain a more "natural" pH and alkalinity level, then significantly increase the use of calcium carbonate. Depending on the calcium carbonate product used (as talked about in post#6 in thread Raisng KH with Coral or Oyster shells) and how it is installed, then the pH might stay around 7.4~7.8 with negligible diurnal pH changes (assuming you have excellently suffucient water circulation and aeration).


Just appropriately raise your alkalinity, only do those big water changes quite slowly (slower than over a period of 8 hours) once or twice a year while maintaining your alkalinity, and everything will be quite fine. Your fish will recuperate if they were not already sick before all this.

There is also other pathogens and contaminants being removed with the water changes as well. There is no natural lake or reservoir that does not have an occurrence of water changes. Baking soda does contain a small amount of sodium so, over a period of a year, your salinity will increase, which is not a good thing. So, once or twice a year I would still recommend a slow big water change.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,818
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
Yeah, since you've been raising the alkalinity and then adding your acidic (low KH) source water, then this likely stressed the fish. So, as I mentioned in post#6, there is quite a bit of changing going on here in addition to your diurnal pH changes. A KH reading of 1 dKH (or 17.9) can mean two things: 1) you have a 17.9 ppm alkalinity; 2) you have no registrable alkalinity. This is where the digital alkalinity instruments come into play, which is not necessary for us in our context unless it is just something you want to do. Most likely, if the test kit registers 1 dKH, then there is no registrable alkalinity.

If this well water is your only source of water, then I would only do big water changes once or twice a year. Using this water for top offs, due to evaporation, will alone eat a noticeable amount of alkalinity if your "top off" volume is quite high.

An alkalinity of 5dKH (that is 89.5 ppm) is not high enough to stop the diurnal pH changes. A heavy residue of algae or heavy residue of plant decomposition or heavy rains or significant water "top offs" from the acid well water or increase in fish density will allow these changes. However, with a 5dKH, excellent water circulation and excellent aeration will significantly help since it is the carbon dioxide fluctuations that is the primary culprit of these pH changes and the water circulates/aeration helps to rapidly release the carbon dioxide before it has a chance to significantly impact the water pH. The amount of water circulation and aeration is entirely dependent on the pond and is different for everyone.

If you want to permanently stop the diurnal pH changes, then an easy fix is to increase the alkalinity to 7dKH (125ppm) or higher. At around 7dKH, the pH will be around 8.3~8.5 (+/- 0.2 variance or so) and any alkalinity levels higher than this will remain around 8.5 (+/- 0.2 variance or so). The only time the pH will will go higher than this is due to a lower free calcium concentration (relative to your carbonate presence) or due to water additives. Also, good to use a presence of a slow release calcium carbonate product to you help maintain, which is sometimes not always enough so you might still need to use baking soda. My previous posts in the threads of this Chemistry sub-forum talks further about all of this in detail and how to approach it.

Once your alkalinity is 7dKH, then the general rule of "1 dKH every 24 hours" no longer applies. So, if your alkalinity is at least 7dKH and you know a very heavy rain storm is coming or before you leave for a long vacation, then put in enough baking soda for around 3dKH or more.

My source water alkalinity hovers around 12~15dKH (214~267 ppm) and the fish show no issues with this high alkalinity.

Only time to be concerned is dependent on fish species and if they can tolerate will enough a pH of around 8.5.

If you want to obtain a more "natural" pH and alkalinity level, then significantly increase the use of calcium carbonate. Depending on the calcium carbonate product used (as talked about in post#6 in thread Raisng KH with Coral or Oyster shells) and how it is installed, then the pH might stay around 7.4~7.8 with negligible diurnal pH changes (assuming you have excellently suffucient water circulation and aeration).


Just appropriately raise your alkalinity, only do those big water changes quite slowly (slower than over a period of 8 hours) once or twice a year while maintaining your alkalinity, and everything will be quite fine. Your fish will recuperate if they were not already sick before all this.

There is also other pathogens and contaminants being removed with the water changes as well. There is no natural lake or reservoir that does not have an occurrence of water changes. Baking soda does contain a small amount of sodium so, over a period of a year, your salinity will increase, which is not a good thing. So, once or twice a year I would still recommend a slow big water change.
Charles my frind as usual you never fail when giving a good answer :happy:

Dave
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,818
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
Hi chaps

I'm fairly new to the pond hobby....
Have a couple of questions..
My pond is about 8000 gals, have 2 Skippy type filters, 1 150 gal and 1 300 gal. I have about 40 fish from some small orf to a big 2 foot koi . I'm running 3 55 Jebao UVs.
I'm not getting any algae, but do experience murky water. I think this may be because I feed the 300 gal filter from 2 pumps sitting on the bottom, sucking up fish poo and other stuff in the water... could this be my problem??
My question is, to clear my water and make it clear I'm doing very big water changes about every 2 weeks. I'm on well water and will typically leave the garden hose running all day (about 8 hrs) this certainly clears the water, I'm guessing that would probably be about an 80% water change. Is that bad? Am I stressing my fish??

Any ideas advice would be great fully received. ..

TIA

Regards. ..
UK Sub when was the last time you ever vacuumed or cleaned the bottom of your pond my friend please. ,
It must be kept clean of all detritus leaves etc especially when we are approaching winter , it may also be giving you the scewed readings your getting , how often do you do water changes to your pond ?

Dave
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Similar Threads

Minimal time between water changes? 4
Water Changes 8
First winter. Should I still do small water changes? 33
Feeding and water changes 15
Water Changes 135
Water Changes 378
Doing water changes 28
koi pond water changes 9

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
30,914
Messages
509,943
Members
13,122
Latest member
Mozzzika

Latest Threads

Top