Water Changes

[Meyer Jordan]

So who says water changes cause stress to fish? Or should I say what scientific information tells us that fish undergo stress during a water change? I guess that is one thing that I am having a hard time accepting (as you probably already figured out)

A good number of people.
Stress is caused in fish by any change in its environment. A water change will alter one or more of the usual water quality parameters. The amount of that alteration will depend on the difference in measured levels of these parameters between the pond water and the source water used in the water change and also is greatly influenced by the volume of water change..10%, 30% etc. Granted, in many cases this stress is acute and short-lived but it is stress nonetheless and if the fish are already stressed from some other source then their stress level is only compounded by water changes.

Although there are scientific papers available on this subject, this link provides a good overview of stress in fish, both acute and chronic.
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2476

 

[bettasngoldfish]

I think I have a good handle on causes of stress and how it can affect fish (and I do understand differences in water parameters) but I guess what I am trying to say is that the lack of water changes will eventually lead to water quality issues which then leads to stress and then will eventually lead to illness and then possibly even death.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I think I have a good handle on causes of stress and how it can affect fish (and I do understand differences in water parameters) but I guess what I am trying to say is that the lack of water changes will eventually lead to water quality issues which then leads to stress and then will eventually lead to illness and then possibly even death.

This has certainly not happened in my pond (Over ten (10) years and counting) or any of the many ponds that I service. I am sure that there are others on this forum that can make a similar report.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

This has certainly not happened in my pond (Over ten (10) years and counting) or any of the many ponds that I service. I am sure that there are others on this forum that can make a similar report.

Yes, I understand there are ways to set up a pond or aquarium that can avoid water changes such as the NPT (natural planted tank) like Mitch has and your pond or the ones you build/service and even the ponds with bogs. But the thing that I am trying to say is that not all ponds, aquariums or stock tanks are set up to work that way. Certainly you understand that? Which again leads me to the comment I made to Mitch about the whole black and white issue in fish keeping. I feel there is more than one way to get the same result.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Yes, I understand there are ways to set up a pond or aquarium that can avoid water changes such as the NPT (natural planted tank) like Mitch has and your pond or the ones you build/service and even the ponds with bogs. But the thing that I am trying to say is that not all ponds, aquariums or stock tanks are set up to work that way. Certainly you understand that? Which again leads me to the comment I made to Mitch about the whole black and white issue in fish keeping. I feel there is more than one way to get the same result.

I can understand why aquaria and stock tanks may have issues, but (and this is sure to upset some people) any pond other than dedicated Koi ponds that requires water changes is not properly designed and/or set-up correctly.

 

[MitchM]

Maria, I thought I said fairly well, one of the stresses fish are put under after a water change in my post from page 7, post 138:

...

How many people are aware of the salt level in their source water? I'm not just referring to sodium, I'm also referring to potassium and chlorine.

If there is a big difference in the salt level between the source water and the pond water, how does a person measure to what degree of stress the water change is causing the fish? The fish's kidneys need to work harder to re-balance the fish's body salt level every time a water change is performed.
...

 

[MitchM]

...but I guess what I am trying to say is that the lack of water changes will eventually lead to water quality issues which then leads to stress and then will eventually lead to illness and then possibly even death.

Which water quality issues in particular, and instead of doing a water change, why not change some aspects of the pond design to prevent those water quality issues in the future?

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[sissy]

main reason source water should be tested ,I test my well water and I fill a stock tank with some of the water and if i need water i use it from there plus it is good to always have one set up if you have the room just in case .I keep plants in it to keep it shaded and I have a pump in my filter box and a airline from my aerator in there

 

[Smaug]

So much talk about making things natural and thus precluding the need for water changes. Thing is that doesn't make sense, in nature all natural healthy bodies of water have huge water changes occurring weekly if not daily.

 

[MitchM]

Big natural bodies of water do not have 10 - 50% changed over a period of a couple of hours.
Trickle water changes are fine because there are no sudden swings in water chemistry.

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[Meyer Jordan]

In addition, in natural lakes and ponds that are flow-through (many are not), the source water being input is often much higher in pollutants than the water column of the lake/pond. This is why,over time, all lakes/ponds become very eutrophic.

 

[Lisak1]

The difference between a discussion and an argument..

A throwback to the days when debate was considered an art form, not a personal attack. Refreshing!

 

[Smaug]

Big natural bodies of water do not have 10 - 50% changed over a period of a couple of hours.
Trickle water changes are fine because there are no sudden swings in water chemistry.

.

Well they certainly do mitch,at least in the case of rivers creeks and streams. In those cases it would 100% change every few seconds . Impounded rivers in the form of lakes would also be being refreshed as the water is always moving but not as quickly. Even beaver ponds and man-made ponds are in a constant state of turnover due to overflow. It's just a fact,nothing to really dispute. Water changes ARE the natural way of bodies of water. Claiming fish stress is also a non starter as everyone here who has claimed to do water changes all have said they observe no stress afterward.

 

[MitchM]

If a stream of water is constantly flowing, then there is no change. The chemical parameters remain stable at all times.

As far as measuring how much stress a fish goes through after a water change, I don't think anyone here has the equipment to measure the sodium, potassium and chlorine that passes through a fish's body.
You can't see the salts, but you can see when your fish look sick or lethargic, or when a parasite has penetrated the protective mucous layer surrounding the fish.
The mucous layer protecting the fish could have been compromised because the fish was stressed having to process large amounts of urine, trying to take in extra salts, or expel extra salts because of a sudden water change.
There are lots of people that come on here, looking for help as to why their fish are sick.

Trying to diagnose someone's water chemistry over a public forum is a guess at best, (there are too many unknowns), but there have been enough studies done regarding the effects of sudden changes in water chemistry on fish health. We can use what information that is available from the ponder having a problem to point to the "most likely" problem that caused the fish to fall sick.

When water changes are done without knowing what you are changing the water with, you have to question the safety of doing the water change in the first place.

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[Meyer Jordan]

Well they certainly do mitch,at least in the case of rivers creeks and streams. In those cases it would 100% change every few seconds . Impounded rivers in the form of lakes would also be being refreshed as the water is always moving but not as quickly. Even beaver ponds and man-made ponds are in a constant state of turnover due to overflow. It's just a fact,nothing to really dispute. Water changes ARE the natural way of bodies of water. Claiming fish stress is also a non starter as everyone here who has claimed to do water changes all have said they observe no stress afterward.

You are assuming that ALL water changes are good. Not so, in Nature most only serve to increase the pollution level of lakes/ponds. That fact can easily be supported from a multitude of sources.
You have observed no fish stress after a water change? What are the physical signs that you would be looking for to detect acute stress (minor or major) in a fish? Do you have a way to measure Cortisol levels in your fish?