Water Changes

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I have a water garden with goldfish. Typically I only do water changes in the spring if the ammonia gets too high before the pond has a chance to cycle. It seems like the biggest problem for ammonia buildup is when it warms up here in early March and then gets cold again in April. By doing frequent water changes of 10-15% I'm able to keep the ammonia in check without using any kind of chemicals. This year I may not do any because everything is looking good. We had a pretty cool spring and things are just warming up now and my fish are just starting to get active.
 

Meyer Jordan

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The solution to polution is dilution. And water changes replenish trace minerals.

What trace minerals need replacing and at what amounts?. Does anyone know the palette of trace minerals in their source water? Does their source water contain the types and levels of trace minerals needed? (It will vary widely depending on geographical location.) This is not a supportable reason for water changes.
Most fish foods contain all of the trace minerals/elements needed.
 

crsublette

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Hi - I recall a conversation re: pros and cons on water changes. I did a search and can't find anything so I decided to start a new thread.
I opened my pond Feb 27th and did a 20-25% water change. It seems some people on the forum say they're pretty much not necessary, something that I can't really wrap my arms around. For 24 years I've done water changes every 2 weeks, maybe 3, but usually 2 weeks at most. Last year I did a couple of pp treatments. The water looked and stayed like glass aside from the fact the water parameters were perfect. I did fewer water changes with no problem.

So this year, it's now 5-6 weeks since a water change, but it's still cool with much less feeding and I'm wondering. Being my water looks fine, the testing parameters are perfect, should I do a 10% changes to at least backwash the bead filter.
The media looks perfect through the see through top.

My other thought was parasites and bacteria. They're there, we all have them but won't water changes keep the level down or is it enough to assume with good water quality and healthy fish, whatever is lurking in the water isn't going to matter? Why do we do water changes? If something is off we might do a change but I always thought it was reduce the level of aeromonas and pseudomonas along with other predators that could attack our fish. Beside, they multiply so how do we keep them at bay without changes?
Any thoughts?

Howdy @barryian !! I haven't read the other posts here yet... Just sharing my perspective.

Some areas seem to have no issues with keeping glassy clear water whereas other areas a different story. My pond water tends to stay glassy clear for a while... until... Wind blows like crazy, organic deposits carried by wind or birds or whatever start to increase like crazy, then tanins start to discolor the water along with quite a bit of floating particulates. In time, the water eventually starts to get glassy clear again and then the process repeats... Due to a leak somewhere in my underground piping or liner, this forces me to keep a slow "top off" from my water source once every 3 days or so. Fortunately, my small pond is surrounded by large elm tries, pines, and some other trees so I figure the leaking water is not going to waste.

Unless there is significant accumulation of pollution in the water or wanting to remove water discoloration... then I wouldn't bother doing water changes. Properly formulated fish food will have all of the trace minerals, vitamins, and nutrition the fish will need.

If not a hassle and pond is designed more like a watergarden rather than a nishikigoi pond, I would on occasion, once a month, do some spot vaccuming in the pond. Not everything, just a bit here and there to try to keep the heterotrophic microbes in check.

Lately I have been doing more in aquaculture, rather than ponding, but each share the same concerns. Aquaculture has witnessed some odd occurrences of sick fish when heterotrophic bacteria are not kept in check. So, to be "better safe than sorry", they often analyze their bio-filter media for heterotrophic bacteria population and, on an occasion, do a severe boil or rush of water to knock off excess biofilm when the heterotrophic population gets too high. Trickle towers are tougher to address so they use a particular media, that has a good angle on it to easily encourage sloughing, and a lower than usual specific surface area. I will have to dig further into my research notes to get more specific, but this is the general jest.

From what I understand, infections from aeromonas/pseudomonas are secondary ailments, either caused by a parasite or fish scraped by something or something else.

Is there something that can be done to reduced these secondary ailments? I don't know... but seems like nishikigoi folk are convinced that PP helps and aquaculture tries to keep a clean environment along with sterilizing tanks if there is an outbreak.

For water gardeners though, much like organic gardeners, there is the thought of a variety of beneficial organisms acting "anti-pathogenic" (for lack of a better word on my part) to help keep these secondary ailments in check.


I do my best, but, unless there is just all of a sudden a massive fish kill, I just let nature figure out the rest for my little rock water garden pond, and I just toss the dead fish into my compost pile.


If you're one of those nishikigoi fellas with fish no less than a $200 price tag on each of them, then I would keep on doing what you have been doing since it seems to be working for ya.
 
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crsublette

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I'll continue doing water changes for sure as my setup is not a complete ecosystem.

@barryian I think there is alot of truth in that statement.

Inland aquculture uses all sorts of water filtration and treatment; so much so this is its own "ecosystem" so the zero discharge recirculating aquaculture systems (RAS) never do any water changes, except when dumping water out of a particular tank to sterilize it. Nowadays, as environmental regulations increase and cost of water goes up and cheap electricity in the United States, I do not know of any RAS systems that implement water changes, unless in the process of dumping a tank to sterilize it. "Dump to waste" aquaculture (typically found with trout farms) seem to only be prevalent where there is cheaper water, such as access to a stream nearby. Most hobby ponds likely have a fish density around 0.04~0.13 lbs/gal (5~15 kg/m) while aquaculture tends to have around 80 kg/m3 (0.66lbs/gal) or higher. There are aquaponic facilities (kind of like watergardeners) operating up to 80kg/m3 and higher fish densities, but the volume of plants used to help aid them are huge, involving an acre, or they use a type of recirculating intermittent, reciprocating wetlands.

I think there is truth in beneficial aspects of a watergarden ecosystem that persuades some folk to not ever need to do advanced filtration nor water changes. Although, I think this has moreso to do with plant/biological densities in lieu with the lower fish densities, lower feeding regiments, and other variables often involved in a hobby pond.
 
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The solution to polution is dilution. And water changes replenish trace minerals.
Actually the excess build up of minerals is one reason why I implement an automatic drip water change system in my pond, the other reason is the drip, along with a calculated overflow level, allows me to maintain a perfect water level without having to manually top off the pond.
But in reference to minerals in the water, my source water is on the hard side, and if all I did was manually top off the pond to replace what was lost through evaporation the water in my pond water would eventually get very hard as the pure H2O evaporates leaving the minerals behind, and every time I top up the pond I'd be adding more minerals which would concentrate more and more as only the pure water continues to evaporate.
 

crsublette

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Most fish foods contain all of the trace minerals/elements needed.

I think this has been mostly true.

Recently I have been reading, mainly Australian aquaculture articles, that have indicated feed companies have been needing to adjust their feeds contents due to the commodity prices of raw ingredients to create fish food. This was raised due to aquaculture facilities witnessing a very slow raise in their feed conversion ratios (FCRs) over the past recent years from using the same fish food. Although, as folk tend to get what they poor for, I bet there are some cheap fish food out there that aren't properly formulated for better digestability, nurtrients, etc. I bet formulations have changed over the decades... seems like to me they would have to due to how everything else in the world seems to change. One particular fella I read about has his fish feeds specifically formulated for his aquaculture outfits.

Although, I agree. I would think the best hobby fish foods out there are quite digestible and contain all of the trace minerals/elements needed.
 

crsublette

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So, bogs are cool, mine is cool and it all works. I guess I enjoy working on it. At this point, retrofitting a bog would be a lot of work and defeat the system I have in place. I guess we all have our preferences and mine is maybe more sterile looking to you, understandably so, but I love sitting down by these guys with amazing clarity and meditating on a big rock I have in place.

@barryian ... here is another approach... has some similar aspects with a bog.... check out iAVS (http://iavs.info/commercial/how-iavs-works-version-1/) ... You can build it so it is entirely detached from your pond... just have a pump that intermittently turns on.. you can have it in any shape you want, anywhere you want... the water returning to your pond could dump into an underground pipe that goes to your pond... Less electricity demand.... Very careful about the sand profile. Not all sand is created equal.
 

crsublette

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They use oxygen systems so they can overload the farms with fish.

Not necessarily. Using liquid oxygen or tank oxygen or an oxygen concentrator or an air pump using atmospheric oxygen... depends on the cost of obtaining that oxygen. Air pumps are actually the most expensive way to inject oxygen into the water, but using pure oxygen is quite expensive if you do NOT have the livestock density to justify the expense..

Reason aquaculture farms run at high densities is so they can compete with an import economy flooding the market with very cheap fish. There has been talk about organic certification of fish to help aquaculture farms grow healthier fish, but, unfortunately and oddly, there has been tremendous push back. The fish densities grown in ocean net cages or lake cages or earth ponds are no more "natural" than RAS and actually are worse since those other aquaculture approaches involve minimum filtration and pollutes oceans and freshwater repositories. Only RAS has the option to actually keeps waste seperated from the fish so it can be properly recycled.
 

Meyer Jordan

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@barryian ... here is another approach... has some similar aspects with a bog.... check out iAVS (http://iavs.info/commercial/how-iavs-works-version-1/) ... You can build it so it is entirely detached from your pond... just have a pump that intermittently turns on.. you can have it in any shape you want, anywhere you want... the water returning to your pond could dump into an underground pipe that goes to your pond... Less electricity demand.... Very careful about the sand profile. Not all sand is created equal.

Interesting! A cross between an 'Ebb and Flow' system and a Surface-flow wetlands filter.
Though novel and maybe suitable for aquaponics, this system could never work as a primary bio-conversion module on a pond whose primary function is to support fish. Only 25% of time dedicated to bio-conversion is simply not enough.
 

crsublette

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Interesting! A cross between an 'Ebb and Flow' system and a Surface-flow wetlands filter.
Though novel and maybe suitable for aquaponics, this system could never work as a primary bio-conversion module on a pond whose primary function is to support fish. Only 25% of time dedicated to bio-conversion is simply not enough.

I understand the concern, but the doctorate involved has done some short trials. I also question much of the results, but the papers show quite undeniable the density of fish he was able to maintain. After this, there was a NRCS agent working with a retired veterinarian to setup an 18 month (think it was?) operation to determine efficacy. After the trial plot concluded, the USDA supposedly gave the trial a "stamp of approval" for successfully raising commercial densities of fish. I still have raised eyebrows about much of it due to the short trial lengths, but I do not know enough, or yet am aware of enough, to deny the results from the short trials.

His intentions and actually implemented the system for third world countries. I don't know if any of them are still continuing although I have my doubt that they actually are still operating.

This doctorate basically is the fella that spurred the entire "aquaponic" industry, as most folk know it. There are been earlier prehistoric implementations and work done by the New Alchemy Institute, but none of their efforts seem to have impacted the development of modern day aquaponics.

Rather than food crops, then do heavy nutrient feeding ornamentals. I haven't read a persuasion as to why it could not work in an ornamental pond situation.
 

Meyer Jordan

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If it is claimed that this system supplies 100% of supplemental bio-conversion required by most fish ponds, hobbyist or aquaponic, I will openly state that such claims fly in the face of known science and is just so much 'Hokum'.
Tell a Koi enthusiast that they only need to run their pond filtration for 30 minutes every 2 hours and a violent reaction is likely.
I would very much like to see any peer-reviewed research that has been done to support these claims.
 

crsublette

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If it is claimed that this system supplies 100% of supplemental bio-conversion required by most fish ponds, hobbyist or aquaponic, I will openly state that such claims fly in the face of known science and is just so much 'Hokum'.
Tell a Koi enthusiast that they only need to run their pond filtration for 30 minutes every 2 hours and a violent reaction is likely.
I would very much like to see any peer-reviewed research that has been done to support these claims.

I share your skepticism.

Here are the peer-reviewed, refereed papers. iAVS Publications (http://iavs.info/publications/)
 

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