Weather creating doubt

[puckerup]

I'm on Long Island, where the weather has been very mild. Have no hard freeze so far, I think there was a thin layer of ice over pond only once so far. For weeks and weeks temps have been in the 50's and 60's during the day, hitting the 30's at night only a few times. Should I start feeding again? I see the fish active in there, does that signal time for feeding? ALso, I had a bad problem with string algae last season, nothing from the pond store helped, any ideas? Thank you

 

[carolinaguy]

Measure your pond water temperature. No food below 50 f for sure. The good bacteria in the fish gut that helps digest food doesn't begin to wake up until 48 f. We wait til 55 f. They don't need food anyway. Plenty of algae which can be 70 % protein and is marine protein which is better anyway. At 55 f start slowly. We usually feed at about 0.5 percent of total body weight to keep the water clean and not promote bad bacteria. Remember bad bacteria eat food too and flourish before the fish Immune system fully kicks in at 65 f.

As for string algae, the first line of defense is always a uv clarifier. Be careful with the next idea. We use it but very carefully. We use algaefix at about 25% the recommended amount. It kills fish through suffocation at recommended strength in our experience. Make sure there is plenty of oxygen. Anyway be careful.

 

[puckerup]

Thank you...we were using a UV, maybe we should get a new bulb. Will follow your temp guides for sure!

 

[Lisak1]

Water temp, not air temp as @carolinaguy says. Your fish don't care what the air feels like.

I don't necessarily agree with the rest however. @Meyer Jordan has shared some interesting information recently that updates a lot of the "for sures" that everyone used to rely on. And as to whether or not they need food - big fish in a relatively small pond can quickly consume all the algae and available plant life, especially coming out of winter. Our koi have been actively seeking food for several weeks now and our water temperature is definitely not above 50 degrees yet. But the warm sunshine brings them to the top of the pond where I'm sure it feels like spring to them. I've tossed a couple of handfuls of food in the pond every day for the past week or so - about six weeks ahead of any prior year. It's gone within seconds.

Algae should be looked at as a symptom, not a problem. It's telling you there's an excess of nutrients in your pond, and in fact the string algae is actually helping. Figure out what's causing the excess of nutrients (overfeeding or too many fish are two possibilities), correct that, add more plants and let nature take it's course. And remember that killing the algae only exacerbates the problem by adding even more nutrients to the pond in the form of dead algae. Pull it out by hand if it gets overbearing, but avoid chemical solutions.

How old is your pond? We'd love to see pictures if you haven't already posted them!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The good bacteria in the fish gut that helps digest food doesn't begin to wake up until 48 f.

Can you provide scientific support for this statement?

 

[adavisus]

Twirl and hurl works to remove excess phosphates, fertility in a Spring pond

Let the string algae build up, let the fish eat on it and hide from the heron among it

When it gets to smother places that you don't want it to go, poke a stick in it, spin it on to the stick and hurl it where the decaying algae will mulch and feed plants that struggle in the heat of Summer

With sufficient ornamental aquatic plants, they will kick in and absorb surplus fertility when waters warm more to their liking and string algae will become a distant memory

 

[carolinaguy]

Can you provide scientific support for this statement?

Yep. Read dr johnsons book or dr nick st earne. Take the koi health advisors course. It's all there. Bacteria stops activity when it's cold. That is what a refrigerator is for and why you own one. The bacteria shivers but it doesn't actively grow, consume food or multiply. Koi are poikilothermic which means their body temperature is about the same as the surrounding water. It's actually about two degrees warmer. Alll refrigerators run at about 38 degrees which is 10 degrees below the threshold for food safety. Old news right?

 

[MitchM]

...

As for string algae, the first line of defense is always a uv clarifier. ...

UV has no effect on string algae.
UV will kill planktonic algae.

 

[Lisak1]

Alll refrigerators run at about 38 degrees which is 10 degrees below the threshold for food safety. Old news right?

Yup... so old it's not true. I can set my refrigerator at any temp between 30 and 50 degrees. I have separate areas of my refrigerator that can maintain cooler or warmer temps depending on the type of food I am storing there. AND to complicate things even further, there are areas of your refrigerator that you cannot control the temperature - like the door which can get well above 55 degrees - and yet we safely store food there all the time. But if you want to name a MOST IDEAL FOR ALL FOODS temperature it would be 35 degrees. The danger zone for food is considered to be above 40 degrees, not 48 degrees. So keeping it above freezing but below 40 is considered the safest.

There are also bacteria that thrive at lower temperatures - close to or below 0F if I remember correctly - so assuming that all bacteria behaves the same it erroneous.

 

[carolinaguy]

Feed your fish before 50 degrees and you are just asking for trouble. Sure fish do feed a little over the winter. The standard for koi keeping is 50 degrees before feeding. If I feed my fish in the 40s they aren't interested and consume very little. My smaller fish actually grow off the existing algae over the winter bu we don't feed them. If fish needed food to live in cold weather and you don't feed they would consume their body tissue until their fusiform shape becomes indented behind the gill carapace. My fish at the end of the winter look just as fat and happy as they did in the fall. No way they need food. But you are welcome to feed if you wish. Don't forget that you are increasing you DOCs that bad bacteria feed off in the spring.

Yup... so old it's not true. I can set my refrigerator at any temp between 30 and 50 degrees. I have separate areas of my refrigerator that can maintain cooler or warmer temps depending on the type of food I am storing there. AND to complicate things even further, there are areas of your refrigerator that you cannot control the temperature - like the door which can get well above 55 degrees - and yet we safely store food there all the time. But if you want to name a MOST IDEAL FOR ALL FOODS temperature it would be 35 degrees. The danger zone for food is considered to be above 40 degrees, not 48 degrees. So keeping it above freezing but below 40 is considered the safest.

There are also bacteria that thrive at lower temperatures - close to or below 0F if I remember correctly - so assuming that all bacteria behaves the same it erroneous.

you don't believe much I guess. Good luck with your analysis. Fish gut bacteria still goes dormant in the cold and cannot help with digestion no matter what temperature your refrigerator is set at. And fish behavior is not to eat as much when it's cold. And excess food is consumed by harmful bacteria that can surge in population during the warmup period if you don't control their food source. And ther is plenty of algae for fish to eat from the side walls rather than potentially contaminating the pond and turning it into a Petri dish for the bad guys. So for the average guy, just wait until the water temp appears to be 50 to 55 on your semi accurate water thermometer before you feed just to practice good koi husbandry.....or not, your choice. Talk about measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a crash ax! Good luck with that.

 

[Lisak1]

you don't believe much I guess.

I don't believe anything just because someone posts it on an internet forum, if that's what you mean. And when someone posts basic facts that I know are incorrect, it does make me question the balance of what they have to say. I am by nature a questioner - I like to learn and asking questions is one way to do that I guess.

Fish gut bacteria still goes dormant in the cold and cannot help with digestion no matter what temperature your refrigerator is set at

You brought up the refrigerator, not me. I was simply sharing that your analysis of bacteria and refrigeration was based on incorrect figures, that's all. Not sure how it changes your perception of your belief, but the devil is in the details.

And excess food is consumed by harmful bacteria that can surge in population during the warmup period if you don't control their food source.

I don't ever leave excess food in the pond, regardless of the temperature, so that's not a concern. And I don't even know if the premise is true - do you believe that harmful bacteria outdo the good bacteria in spring? Do the bad guys get a head start? I'm not saying you're wrong... just that I don't know for sure you're right.

And ther is plenty of algae for fish to eat from the side walls rather than potentially contaminating the pond and turning it into a Petri dish for the bad guys.

So when my fish eat algae, do they not then create waste? How is algae poop any different than poop from fish food? And how do my fish process the algae they eat without the gut bacteria being awake and working to aid digestion? And since nature is telling my fish to eat that algae, how is it bad for that same force of nature to tell them to eat the food I toss in the pond?

just wait until the water temp appears to be 50 to 55 on your semi accurate water thermometer before you feed just to practice good koi husbandry

If the thermometer is only "semi-accurate" why trust it at all? Why not observe the behavior of my fish and determine from there whether or not they could benefit from some food?

If I feed my fish in the 40s they aren't interested and consume very little.

From that statement it almost appears you agree with me!

 

[Lisak1]

And to be clear - I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am genuinely curious about these topics and find that many people just repeat old information without really challenging the thought process. I may be completely wrong - I'm willing to accept that. But I won't be convinced with "that's the way it's always been" or "it's accepted practice". Heck, bloodletting with leeches used to be the accepted practice... not so much anymore.

 

[carolinaguy]

I don't feed fish at about 55 degrees. They never complain. I have fed fish at 50 and they just ignore the food. That's the fish talking, not me. Eating side algae removes food from the pond and the fish waste is removed in the filter. Adding food to the pond is a net nutrient increase as opposed to eating algae which is a net decrease. As for removing food they don't eat, unless you use a vacuum you don't get it all, and you feed your DOC level, dissolved organic compounds, something you can't see and is a nutrient. Unless you continue your weekly 10% water changes over the winter, something most people don't do, or use a foam fractionation, which most people don't build, DOCs build up. As for semi accurate thermometers, that was your argument, not mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink; you can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think. And personally, I don't care if you disagree or agree. Don't read the internet, read dr johnson's book, or dr st earne 's. They are both expert vet specialists in exotics. But don't also tell newbies to feed below 50 degrees. That's just bad husbandry.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

It appears to me that, as has happened in past threads, One side is thinking of DKPs and the other is thinking eco-ponds. Much of what @carolinaguy has offered does indeed apply to DKPs, but has little to do with eco-ponds. Let's define what aquatic system we are discussing first.

Although it has been posted in many previous threads, it bears repeating. For what its worth, in a natural environment Carp (Koi) will continue to feed at temperatures as low as 33.5Fand their preferred food of choice are benthic organisms (high protein) not algae. Granted the frequency of feeding diminishes as temperatures decrease, but feeding does continue. Even with a low metabolic rate a maintenance diet is still required otherwise energy will be derived from existing body mass. Energy allocation is re-directed from other functions, such as the immune system, in order to maintain life.
Bottom line.........scientific research has basically supported what can be put in simple terms: If your fish appear hungry....Feed Them!

 

[Lisak1]

I don't feed fish at about 55 degrees. They never complain.

At what point would they start complaining? And exactly how would they do that?

I have fed fish at 50 and they just ignore the food. That's the fish talking, not me.

That's basically my point - if your fish are exhibiting all the signs of hunger, why not let them eat? If they don't appear hungry, don't feed them. Where's the harm?

Eating side algae removes food from the pond and the fish waste is removed in the filter. Adding food to the pond is a net nutrient increase as opposed to eating algae which is a net decrease.

Uh... OK? If you want to consider algae the same as food, which I don't. How does algae add to the nutrient load - unless it is killed off that is?

As for removing food they don't eat, unless you use a vacuum you don't get it all

Except there IS no food they don't eat. We only feed our fish what they eat, not one pellet more. We take our time feeding our fish and watch for signs they are getting enough and stop before they are satiated.

As for semi accurate thermometers, that was your argument, not mine.

Nope, that was you, too. You said I should just watch my "semi accurate water thermometer"... which I don't have. Accurate or otherwise. I wish I did, as I have some genuine curiosity about water temps at different depths, too. Someday maybe. But what about that? What if I'm trained to trust a thermometer instead of watching my fish and my thermometer is wrong. Wouldn't it make more sense to trust your powers of observation over a potentially flawed measuring device?

you can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think

It seems that what you're asking me to do is STOP thinking and just accept the standard practice, whether it makes sense to me or not.

But don't also tell newbies to feed below 50 degrees.

I didn't tell anyone what to do - I was just sharing a thought process that your post inspired. I think everyone should read and study and do what they ultimately believe is best. I consider myself to be a relative newbie as it is - we've only been pond keeping for 6 years, so I'm still on the learning curve. In fact, I hope I always stay on the curve - new information is unveiled all the time about the natural world that can change the way we view things if we stay curious.

One side is thinking of DKPs and the other is thinking eco-ponds

I guess I wonder how that would matter when we're talking about whether or not it's OK to feed fish below a certain temperature. Aren't koi koi, whether they are in an eco-pond or a DKP? Wouldn't they respond the same to feeding at the same temps?

Energy allocation is re-directed from other functions, such as the immune system, in order to maintain life.

I wonder if this explains why the theory was developed that koi are weak coming out of winter due to low bacteria function in their gut. Maybe it's just because they've been without food for too long and they've been depleting their immune system. Just a thought...

If your fish appear hungry....Feed Them!

Agreed!