Who handles pond construction?

[CplDevilDog]

Hi all,

Please, can anyone offer any advice or suggestions on finding a Concrete Koi Pond Builder?

My wife and I decided last year that we wanted a pond in the backyard. We were planning on a semi-raised design in reinforced block which I was going to build myself. Unfortunately, after I excavated, I found all bedrock about 36" below grade and my plans of a trench footer went right out the window. I don't have any experience forming walls and we have been looking for months for someone to build the project for us. The story just repeats over and over. Contractor calls, says they're interested, comes out for a site visit and either turns the job down flat or never calls back.

As a Carpenter and Construction Supervisor I know that Bid Construction Jobs are a lose-lose proposition. I have told every Contractor that has come out that we are willing to work on a Time and Materials Basis or Cost Plus Fee Not To Exceed but still no interest.

I am going to upload pics of our concept and site for reference.

 

[CplDevilDog]

The sticking point for everyone that comes out is Site Access and Form Construction.

As you can see from the 2nd photo there are some elevation and machine access challenges. I was able to get a Bobcat 324 and Toro Dingo around back during the excavation but that is about the limit. Pumping the concrete would almost certainly be the way to go.

Everything beneath and around the pond is bedrock so anchoring formwork would be a problem. In fact, the two steps in the back of the pond floor are to cover bedrock projections that would be troublesome to remove. One suggestion that was put forth was to start with a "mud slab" and work up off of that.

J

 

[addy1]

So you are on a slope, bedrock below the surface, drainage issues (draining into the pond from the hill behind) but it can be done. No clue on how to help you find someone to build it for you though.

 

[sissy]

same thing here but the reason i think they don't want to do it is the ledge being shale it could shift and they don't want the hassle .It could be they are looking at zoning laws also as it could be thought of as a pool also and there could a problem they know of that they are not saying .It could be because the area you live .Even bedrock will not hold it from shifting and you could check with your building department and show them what you want .There may be issues with safety and drainage also or the area could be listed as a conservation area .That you would have to find out .Anything done on ledge in some areas have laws and sloping, those contractors must know something you don't and they are not saying .liability issues come to mind .PA laws are somewhat strict in certain areas

 

[CplDevilDog]

Hi Sissy,

Thank you for your reply.

I ran everything by my township and they said as long as I'm not using it as a swimming pool, they have no regulations covering its construction (kind of crazy considering the depth and scale, but ok by me).

The pond is semi-raised, with the front wall being about 20"above finished grade. We would like to allow the concrete to set up for 6 months and then apply a Surface Bonding Cement followed by one of the spray in liners. If that all fails we could always add a liner
later.

Based on some holes I drilled in the rock when I was planning to continue on DIY, I beliefs the rock below is 18" to 8' thick. Our neighbor, who was here when the original owners built the house 30 years ago, said that the builder had to blast to get the building pad in.

At this point we are considering drawing up the specs to the job, complete with photos and images of the site and putting ads in the paper offering a reward for anyone that can put us in touch with someone who successfully completes the job.

 

[sissy]

Have you tried to contact a cement company itself and get there opinion and if they know of a company that has the experience and knowledge of how to do this .I think that is whats scaring the companies away if they have to blast to put it in and all the regulations and safety measures and paying for a professional blast is not cheap .My parents did it at there house in Benton PA and even back then it was not easy or cheap and that was 20 years ago .Permits were 10 thousand dollars back then .If yours is not bad you may be able to pin it in with hydraulic cement ..There is a program on the internet that is free called sketch it and I use it for my landscaping .My son does contracting but he gave up his license in PA as he could not afford the people who could or would not pay there bills .He just got sick of it and not sure he still holds his license in VA or NJ either as he is an owner of a tattoo parlor in NJ and works as a welder and tow truck driver ,jack of all things that make money he says

 

[sissy]

how bout the preformed craned in they make them in cement and fiberglass like pools .I know theres one here but not sure of the name or if there in business anymore

 

[fishin4cars]

Have you checked with swimming pool installers? Of course you will need to sit down and show them exactly what you want but they should be able to get the primary install done for you?

 

[CplDevilDog]

Hi all,

thanks again for all the input.

I had not considered the preformed crane-in style but I think it would run up against two problems. I suspect the ground has to be soft so it can be placed and then backfilled and then the crane would have to be bigger than anything I have ever seen. The elevation change from the street to the bottom of the garage door is 16' and assuming the house is roughly 35' high and 30' front to back.

I just have nightmares of something like this

:redface:

Thank you for the suggestion though.


I really think formed and poured is the right way to go. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to form it though. Has anyone ever used foam as the "backing" for their forms?

 

[Waterbug]

Yes, swimming pool installer is what you want. There really is no such thing as a pond builder for concrete ponds, at least I've never heard of one. Finding a pool installer with any pond experience can be hard, maybe impossible. Basically you just call every pool installer in the yellow pages and ask if they have ever built a pond.

There will also be people out there wanting to start a pool building business. They might take a shot at it. But of course they may barely know how to build a pool let alone a pond.

Here's a thread in another forum I've been reading on a guy in the same boat as you. Lot's to learn from his experience.

What the township told you is insane. I've lived in several states, many cities, and it's always been the same, basically the opposite of what you were told. Normal code is any water feature deeper than a set amount, I've seen 18" to 24", is treated exactly the same. They don't care if it's a swimming pool, pond, or wishing well. For example I've never seen code that requires a filter on a swimming pool. If you add a filter then yes it's installation is cover by code. Unless you're in a town that they don't care about anything that pond would be covered by code.

Next, the pond/pool you're building is no normal pool. Like you said, most pool installers don't have to deal with forms, at least the kind you'd need. Bedrock presents more problems because a lot of pipes are normally run under the pool. So you're limited to high end pool builders.

The contractors not calling back...You expected a contractor to return a phone call? I have heard stories and rumors of contractors calling back but I sure have never experienced it. You need to talk to a swimming pool sales person out of the yellow pages. They get paid on commission. They know how to promise you the moon and then try to figure out the details later.

The biggest rub is swimming pool builders don't generally know much about ponds. If you read the thread in the link you will see that you need to be the on site pond expert. You can also connect with the local Koi club. Some of them may have built such a pond and can recommend someone.

Contractors aside...20" above grade is nothing. You can certainly do that with block. I've gone 3' above grade with block. You aleady have as good a foundation as there ever was, bedrock. Drill some holes for vertical rebar, epoxy in place and dry stack bock. Every course above grade gets horizontal rebar. Use bond beam block for everything. Fill all block voids with concrete. Use a liner and forget the spray on what it was you said.

You have curved walls. They can be done with block too, maybe half blocks. Lay the first course, fill with concrete maybe half full and let set for a couple of days. This first course can now be used to build the form. Rip 1/8" Luan plywood into 12" widths. Press one strip against the inside of the first course and another strip on the outside and clamp. You may want to dry stack another course just as something to clamp to. Use a urethane wood glue to bond additional Luan strips, building to at least 1/2" thick. Let the glue cure for 24 hours. Now as you build each course you can clamp the form on the outside and inside and fill the block with concrete. The concrete will fall out the gaps caused by curving the block and be stopped by the form. You can even skip the inside form if you like. Let the concrete set up for a couple of hours and repeat for each course. The block keeps most of the pressure off of the form, plus you're only doing one course at a time. So blowing out a form is not much of a risk.

Not to bust your chops but some of the things you're saying doesn't make sense to me, like "allow the concrete to set up for 6 months". Stuff like that can cause a contractor to bail. I've done it many times and it's not something you can tell the customer because they'd just get mad. If a customer is saying a lot of things and it's clear they think they know more than the actually do it's a no win situation. There's no way I will ever be able to make the customer happy. If I follow the instructions to the letter the result is a complete wreck and I get blamed. If build correctly against the customer's instructions they get mad as hell. Explaining stuff doesn't work either because nothing makes sense to them. I'd rather they be mad because I refused to bid than end up in court. I don't know you, don't know the story, just saying.

The foam thing, that's pretty wild. How much are you willing to spend? Sounds like a lot.

 

[Waterbug]

You know what you're building is in the $50,000 range? I mean to hire it out. Couple of grand DIY.

 

[CplDevilDog]

Yes, I really have myself in a pickle. :frown:

I can't seem to find anyone who is wiling to work as part of a team. As you said, the pool guys (and there are darned few of the in-ground variety here in SW PA) are stumped by the filtration aspects and the pond guys are stumped by the concrete forming aspects.

If I could find:

1. A designer that would work with me in Sketch-Up to get the volumes, dimensions, amperages and plumbing laid out and finalize a really good set of working drawings.

2. A concrete guy who understands cold-pours, key-ways and these curved forms.



I think it would be manageable.

As a Framer (and General Know-It-All ), I could tent the site with a double layer of plastic and get some pot heaters on site. Keep the propane going til the concrete is cured and then switch over to an electric heater for a few weeks. I figure letting it set for a few months would get most of the cracking out of the way, followed by some epoxy. SBC would add even more tensile flexibility. I like the idea of a liner as a last resort only because of the folding.

The budget is there.

I have 3 guest rooms available (4 if I sleep on the couch) :fingersx:

 

[sissy]

LMAO .I can see you have a big job ahead of you .I saw ponds that have what they call double wall and are for partial above ground install .But the company is in Arizona .I have been looking but can't find to much info on above ground ponds and you may be the first to do one .Still looking how about allan block.com and aquascapes does above ground and has pics of them also on there sight

 

[j.w]

Wow seems like you should hire Waterbug and have him come stay w/ ya for awhile. He could be the boss man and just tell you and everyone there what ya need to purchase and do...............hire some illegal aliens and voila you get the job done!

 

[Waterbug]

CplDevilDog, sounds like you have a good understanding of what's ahead. Sounds like you're finding good contractors because they're being honest and saying this isn't something they know how to do.

For a pond designer there are many across the country. I suggest if you can't find one locally that you find one willing to work online. This forum has more of a Water Garden focus. Koiphen is more of a Koi forum and there are many examples of the type of pond you want. There are several builders there who post often. You might even find one local. You can read their posts and get a really good idea if you like their personal communication style and see what other builders think of their opinions. I don't think there is a better way to find someone you trust. You can also just post your project there and are likely to get very good and very detailed advice. Because you have good and interesting drawings they'll know you're serious. You do have to be open minded, willing to learn and use their advice. It is very common for people with no experience to ignore their advice which is fine, it's a free country. But people who know what their talking about lose interest because they really can't help that person. Lot's of threads on Koiphen that went in that direction and the results are normally absolute wrecks.

Once you know what the pond should be you should not have as much trouble finding a pool builder who know how to build the speced walls. Who still have to be the on site GC and take responsibility for results. You know that process already so that should be easy enough. As you said, pool builders don't know how to build a pond. As long as you take that responsibility for the spec there should be more willing builders.

There is a potential problem with this course...all the experienced high end concrete pond builders in the entire country really only build one type of pond and that is a high end Koi pond. If you wanted a slightly different pond, say one with plants, they wouldn't really understand how to build that type of pond. Most people, even within the different pond hobbies, consider all ponds as the same. But a Koi pond and a Water Garden are entirely different. Holding water is the only thing in common. So it's like thinking an airplane and a car are the same things and an expert car builder would also be an expert airplane builder.

I could tent the site with a double layer of plastic and get some pot heaters on site. Keep the propane going til the concrete is cured and then switch over to an electric heater for a few weeks. I figure letting it set for a few months would get most of the cracking out of the way, followed by some epoxy. SBC would add even more tensile flexibility. I like the idea of a liner as a last resort only because of the folding.

I don't know what you mean by SBC? Are you talking about styrene butadiene rubber?

I'll be blunt because you are starting down a long, expensive and what can be heart breaking path...that statement has train wreck written all over it. It sounds like you know a little about concrete and that's really dangerous. I think it would be a good thing to post on Koiphen because it would start a good discussion on why it's all wrong, but you have to be willing to drop it and ask "how should it be done" and you should get helpful advice.

Looks like a fun project. If you do start a thread elsewhere I hope you let us know. I'd like to see how the project goes.