Winter’s Effect On Koi, Goldfish, and Ponds by Richard E. Carlson

Discussion in 'Winterizing Your Pond' started by urglik, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. urglik

    urglik

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    143
    Location:
    Green Oak Township, Mi
    urglik, Oct 18, 2016
    #1
    Usman, Magzire and Faebinder like this.
    1. Advertisements

  2. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    Do you happen to know the date that this article was published?
    Not only does the author contradict himself within the article, but many of his statements are completely outdated with more recent research reaching different conclusions.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 18, 2016
    #2
    morewater and Faebinder like this.
    1. Advertisements

  3. urglik

    urglik

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2016
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    143
    Location:
    Green Oak Township, Mi
    thank you so much for your input. it seemed scholarly from my limited experience.
    it appears the article was published in 2010.
    can you direct us to other articles outlining the effects of winters onset through spring in the detail that was presented?
    it would be greatly appreciated.
     
    urglik, Oct 18, 2016
    #3
  4. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    The internet is full of pond related sites that contain articles on all aspects of pond husbandry. Problem is most contain outdated information or information based on anecdotal sources rather than scientific research. This is why there is so much contradictory information available.
    Within this very article is a prime example. The author states:
    "......What this tells us is that the biological nitrification processes continue even during the coldest water conditions. This is an important fact to remember as those ponders who keep their filters running all winter will retain a significant level of biological nitrification processing throughout the winter and will see no accumulation of ammonia or nitrites while the fish are “under the ice.” "
    Yet in the very next section, the author starts to refute this statement with:
    "At 62 degrees, the activity of the nitrosomonas bacteria begins to reduce significantly. The effect of this, of course, is a reduced ability for the filter system to manage the conversion of ammonia to nitrites,....."
    and then:
    "At 55 degrees, the nitrifying bacteria in our filters begin to die off as well, although they will not be completely gone until about 42 degrees F. The effect of this is that our filters begin to loose the ability to eliminate nitrites."

    Both assertions can not be correct. But which one is the correct statement? How is the hobbyist reader to know? The author does not cite any sources for his information. If he did, even he might have seen the contradiction and performed the necessary editing before publishing this article.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 19, 2016
    #4
    morewater and cas like this.
  5. urglik

    Magzire

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Kildare
    Excellent read, thanks for sharing!
     
    Magzire, Oct 19, 2016
    #5
  6. urglik

    Magzire

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Kildare
    My fish have stop eating, so they don't eat for the next 5 months? Seems extreme.
     
    Magzire, Oct 19, 2016
    #6
  7. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    If your fish are moving and breathing they are eating. Maybe not as often or as much, but still eating if they can find something to eat.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 20, 2016
    #7
    morewater likes this.
  8. urglik

    Lisak1

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,902
    Likes Received:
    2,971
    Location:
    Northern IL
    We don't "feed" our fish from mid to late October until late April or early May. But every spring they are larger than they were going in to winter, so we know they are eating something down there!

    We're having a warm fall, so the fish are still active and hungry, but cooler days (and nights) this week will slow them down.
     
    Lisak1, Oct 22, 2016
    #8
    callingcolleen1 and morewater like this.
  9. urglik

    Lisak1

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,902
    Likes Received:
    2,971
    Location:
    Northern IL
    This is true of the internet in general. I wish someone was in charge of cleaning stuff up!
     
    Lisak1, Oct 22, 2016
    #9
  10. urglik

    morewater President, Raccoon Haters International

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,344
    Likes Received:
    1,652
    Location:
    Southern Ontario
    Al Gore is full of it.

    I invented the Internet.
     
    morewater, Oct 24, 2016
    #10
    callingcolleen1 likes this.
  11. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    Then, Please, grab a broom.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 24, 2016
    #11
    JBailey likes this.
  12. urglik

    sissy sissy

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    26,610
    Likes Received:
    10,681
    Location:
    Axton virginia
    I noticed yesterday while looking at my pond that the fish have already stripped the liner clean of all the good muck they like to eat over winter .I feed depending on water temps. and we don't get that cold and pond is near septic tank so it gets heat from it .I guess feeding depends on where you live and what the winters are like from one year to the next .Last year was a mild winter for most of us and then around Feb. we paid for the mild winter .Not sure what this winter will be like .
     
    sissy, Oct 25, 2016
    #12
  13. urglik

    Faebinder

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    716
    Likes Received:
    383
    Location:
    Hershey, PA
    Dont worry.. my AstroFish (that would be my red-white bubble eye goldfish) says it's gonnna get cold fast!!!

    But not to worry about him cause in addition to his Precognition powers, he has the power to become invisible when no one is looking at him, and the power to teleport to the exact same location where he is.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
    Faebinder, Oct 25, 2016
    #13
    Georgi and Nepen like this.
  14. urglik

    sissy sissy

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    26,610
    Likes Received:
    10,681
    Location:
    Axton virginia
    I am going to have to wait until next year to replace the liner again .They guy went missing who said he was going to pay for the liner that the dog sliced .But my camera did pick him up taking his dog away and I have his name He turned his cell phone off
     
    sissy, Oct 25, 2016
    #14
  15. urglik

    Faebinder

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    716
    Likes Received:
    383
    Location:
    Hershey, PA
    Arguing for the sake of arguing... Nitrosomonas bacteria is not the same as Nitrifying bacteria and they can survive different temperature ranges is what is sounds like in those two statements.
     
    Faebinder, Oct 25, 2016
    #15
  16. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    Where did you read that?

    Nitrosomonas is a nitrifying bacteria along with Nitrospira, Nitrobacter, Nitrospina, Nitrosococcus, and Nitrotoga among others. Each has its preference of temperature. Some continue to oxidize at a temperatures of 5C, Nitrotoga as low as 1C.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 25, 2016
    #16
  17. urglik

    Faebinder

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    716
    Likes Received:
    383
    Location:
    Hershey, PA
    Well that's interesting then.. may be he believes that most of the Ammonia to nitrites stop at 62F and most nitrites to nitrates at 55F? I wont claim knowledge of these types of bacteria... that's just how i read what he said.
     
    Faebinder, Oct 25, 2016
    #17
  18. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    I actually believe that the author did a 'copy and paste' on much of this article.
    The statement concerning bacteria in WWTP (Waste Water Treatment Plants) is correct. These facilities must be able to operate year-round. The simple fact that they are able to do this proves that nitrifying bacteria function at extremely low temperatures. Granted their efficiency at oxidizing Ammonia and Nitrite is greatly reduced but they will still function at 5% to 20% efficiency at temperatures as low as 5C.
    This chart displays how this is fairly constant regardless of environment.
    Nitrification effect of temperature.jpg
    Considering the fact that Ammonia production is also severely reduced at these temperatures Ammonia and Nitrite build-up is not likely to occur.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 25, 2016
    #18
    Nepen likes this.
  19. urglik

    herzausstahl herzausstahl

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    184
    Location:
    Northeast Wisconsin Zone 4a/5b

    Kind of what I've just believed all along, the processes may be ongoing but they have slowed to such a degree that they're chances of hitting harmful levels is greatly diminished. No scientific evidence to back it up, just a gut feeling I've had since having my pond. Biggest issue for me is lack of oxygen if my fish loads were too high going into winter.
     
    herzausstahl, Nov 11, 2016
    #19
  20. urglik

    budgenator

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    199
    Location:
    Croswell MI
    While most of the denitrifaction bacteria poop-out in the cold water, other bacteria like anaerobic bacteria can and do continue to digest wastes and release both methane and hydrogen sulphide gasses which can be very toxic to life. That's the reason the sludge we scoop out in the spring stinks so bad.
    denitrifcating bacteria tend to follow these kinetics;
    P = 0.25T^2,
    P = Percent of denitrifying bacteria growth rate at 20°C,
    T = Temperature, °C
    so at minimum water temperature at the bottom, 4°C the bacteria would, be working at 1%, I don't buy the idea the bacteria "die" at any particular low temperature, they just go into near dormancy; some reactivate faster than others and have different kinetics.
     
    budgenator, Nov 23, 2016
    #20
    JBailey likes this.
    1. Advertisements

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. HTH

    The effect of Chlorine on DOCs

    HTH, May 26, 2013, in forum: Water Chemistry
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    862
    crsublette
    Jun 9, 2013
  2. Dave 54
    Replies:
    20
    Views:
    2,351
    Dave 54
    May 3, 2014
  3. Mucky_Waters
    Replies:
    43
    Views:
    1,654
    Shdwdrgn
    Jul 8, 2014
  4. Usman

    POND BUILDER'S BIBLE (free e-book)

    Usman, Aug 9, 2016, in forum: Newbies to Garden Ponds
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    447
    sissy
    Aug 10, 2016
  5. texmaster

    Texmaster's ponds

    texmaster, Sep 3, 2016, in forum: Pond Showcase Comments
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    414
    Melina Nelson
    Nov 15, 2016
  6. Georgi
    Replies:
    25
    Views:
    617
    Meyer Jordan
    Sep 28, 2016
  7. Querorz

    Master's thesis on ponds

    Querorz, Oct 28, 2016, in forum: Garden Pond Talk
    Replies:
    15
    Views:
    313
    Usman
    Nov 1, 2016
  8. RobAmy

    A Winter's Stream

    RobAmy, Jan 7, 2017, in forum: General Chat
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    171
    RobAmy
    Jan 9, 2017
Loading...