Nitrospira

The paradigm shift continues.

  1. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan submitted a new article:

    Nitrospira - The paradigm shift continues.

    Read more about this article...
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 5, 2015
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  2. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    What is the ammonia ppm level range between "raised ammonia levels and reduced ammonia levels"?
     
    MitchM, Sep 6, 2015
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  3. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Without going into great technical detail, here is briefly what research has found-
    -Free ammonia inhibition on respiration in Nitrobacter initiated at below 1 mg/L NH3.
    -Respiration gradually decreased by 12% when free ammonia concentration increased from 0 to 4 mg/L NH3.
    -Nitrobacter ceased to grow at a free ammonia level above 6 mg/L NH3.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 6, 2015
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  4. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    It's my understanding that using too much ammonia during a fishless cycling process will delay the process due to lack of oxygen.
    With the presence of archaea and nitrospira, does that mean that my understanding is wrong?
     
    MitchM, Sep 7, 2015
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  5. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I can not remember ever seeing any reference to Ammonia levels affecting DO levels. Ammonia does inhibit Oxygen transfer at the gill surface of fish.
    Assuming DO levels of >3.0 mg/L, I would think that the use of too much Ammonia during fishless cycling would surely delay the process, but not due to any inhibition of Oxygen, but rather lack of sufficient bacteria/archaea colony size which, in turn, has been limited by available SSA. Fewer bacteria/archaea will most certainly take longer to process larger Ammonia levels.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 7, 2015
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  6. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    I don't think that it was the ammonia level that was responsible for the reduced DO, but the extra nitrosomonas activity that consumed O2 to a point that it delayed the next step of nitrite oxidiation by nitrobacter that was the issue.
    I have never been able to find how far the O2 was supposedly depleted, or how that would have really affected the cycle.
    Thanks.
     
    MitchM, Sep 7, 2015
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  7. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Increased bacterial activity does consume more Oxygen and can lead to lower DO levels especially at higher temperatures. I guess it could happen, but I find it hard to imagine DO levels being reduced that much in a fishless pond. I would be interested in reading the document related to this if you still have a link.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 7, 2015
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  8. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    That's the problem, I haven't been able to find a study to demonstrate that.
    I first heard of the possible issue from a past member here, Waterbug.
    He was very knowledgeable and I respect his opinion. He wasn't certain of it either, but I thought the concept was legitimate.
    Given that archaea and nitrospira can survive in an O2 depleted enviroment, maybe it's a non-issue.
     
    MitchM, Sep 7, 2015
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  9. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I just can't visualize a scenario in a fishless garden pond where the BOD would ever exceed the natural rate of Oxygen replenishment. In larger eutrophic bodies of water where stratification occurs this is often a recurring problem. Maybe that is what Waterbug was thinking of.

    Nitrospira and archaea survive anoxic conditions but all oxidation processes are reduced.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 7, 2015
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  10. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    So as far as fishless cycling goes, we are still at a point where the recommended ammonia level should be followed, 3 ppm, but if the level is above that, there should not be any delay in the establishment of a healthy biofilm that can support a fish population.
     
    MitchM, Sep 7, 2015
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  11. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Providing that there is sufficient SSA to support the required additonal colony growth. Same principle as having a bio-filter large enough (SSA) to sustain a pond with fish.

    Question. Who established 3 ppm as the recommended level?
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 7, 2015
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  12. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    I can't find any specific information on the 3 ppm either, just seems to be a "recommended" level.
     
    MitchM, Sep 8, 2015
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  13. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I have seen 2 ppm mentioned and also 4 ppm mentioned. It may be related more to the fact that increasing Ammonia levels progressively restrict the oxidizing processes of Nitrobacter with all processes ceasing at 6 ppm Ammonia.
    I seem to remember seeing use of the phrase "stall the cycling process" used in relation to Ammonia levels, so I guess 2 - 4 ppm was settled on as a workable level.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 8, 2015
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  14. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    A good reference chart-
    ammonia-removed.gif
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 19, 2015
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  15. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    Just to be clear, "ammonia nitrogen" is not something new to be measuring for, it's just another way of saying regular ammonia.
     
    MitchM, Dec 19, 2015
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  16. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Correct.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 19, 2015
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  17. Meyer Jordan

    Gordo33

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    I am several days into the process of a fishless cycle for a 36 gal aquarium. I spend a lot of time on simply discus forum since I have discus display tanks. The following are the sources they provide for the amount of ammonia to use to cycle a tank.
    http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
    http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/fishless_cycle.shtml



    The following is an interesting read with mention of some of the information in the article presented here. http://skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle
     
    Gordo33, Dec 19, 2015
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  18. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    All three are excellent articles, but it is important to remember that these are focused on Aquaria and not on ponds. Slightly different outcomes may present themselves in a Garden Pond venue. For instance, in the first article the author mentions that
    "The problem is that both the ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria are very slow growing so it can take 30 to 45 days (usually saltwater takes longer) for the bacteria to become naturally established.....".
    This may be true in Aquariums, but a Garden Pond will fully cycle in about four (4) weeks (with fish) at optimum temperature. Nitrifying bacteria generally will double in numbers every 15 - 20 hours. This is not really that slow of a growth rate and in a short period of time (4 weeks) the colony population has the potential of numbering in the billions.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 19, 2015
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  19. Meyer Jordan

    Gordo33

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    The 4 week pond cycle at optimum temp, what is optimum temp ? The articles I referenced mention elevating aquarium temp to 82-86 degrees to help accelerate the cycle. Once cycled reduce temp specific to fish. With my pond in the northeast i don't believe the pond temps would reach near 80 degrees until mid summer. So my question is will a pond located in cooler climates take longer to cycle than a pond in your region. If so the time frame would be similar to those mentioned in the articles.

    I believe one of the articles discussed pH affect on the nitrogen cycle. Typically aquariums are at lower pH than ponds. If my memory is correct the cycle will diminish significantly as pH approaches 6 due to ammonia changing to a less toxic form. Most aquariums are in 6.6-7.6 range

    Do you think another reason a pond may cycle quicker is greater amount of media available for the bb to colonize and surface area increasing O2 levels.

    Aquarium cycling used to be strictly with fish but majority now use fishless cycle. I don't believe there is a difference in time to cycle between these methods. Just not sacrificing fish

    My back round here is limited but I find this fascinating. How a life cycle develops to sustain living organisms is amazing. It's unreal what we take for granted and that the majority of us are naive to all to goes on around us.

    I learn a ton reading your posts on this site and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.
     
    Gordo33, Dec 20, 2015
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  20. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    The lower the water temperature, the longer it will take to completely cycle.

    As pH is lowered, less of the TAN is free Ammonia. More importantly, however, is the fact that Nitrosomonas is severely restricted in Ammonia oxidation. See chart below-
    nitrosomonas pH chart.jpg
    Yes, these two factors would certainly affect the cycle time.

    Any discussion on this subject is, IMO, infinitely more important than most of the superfluous and transient things that most people seem to value. What is mind-boggling is for all of the research that has been done on just this one subject-The Nitrogen Cycle-new discoveries are still being made. Nitrospira and Archaea have been found to be the overall majority players, instead of NItrosomonas and Nitrobacter. A new player, the extent of influence is still being researched, just recently identified is Nitrotoga arctica which is known to oxidize Nitrite at temperatures approaching freezing. This in itself suggests that there must also be an Ammonia oxidizer that is active at these temperature. Where else would the Nitrite come from? Each discovery leads to more questions and more discoveries.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 20, 2015
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