Nitrospira

[Meyer Jordan]

Correct.

 

[Gordo33]

Providing that there is sufficient SSA to support the required additonal colony growth. Same principle as having a bio-filter large enough (SSA) to sustain a pond with fish.

Question. Who established 3 ppm as the recommended level?

I am several days into the process of a fishless cycle for a 36 gal aquarium. I spend a lot of time on simply discus forum since I have discus display tanks. The following are the sources they provide for the amount of ammonia to use to cycle a tank.
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/fishless_cycle.shtml



The following is an interesting read with mention of some of the information in the article presented here. http://skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle

 

[Meyer Jordan]

All three are excellent articles, but it is important to remember that these are focused on Aquaria and not on ponds. Slightly different outcomes may present themselves in a Garden Pond venue. For instance, in the first article the author mentions that
"The problem is that both the ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria are very slow growing so it can take 30 to 45 days (usually saltwater takes longer) for the bacteria to become naturally established.....".
This may be true in Aquariums, but a Garden Pond will fully cycle in about four (4) weeks (with fish) at optimum temperature. Nitrifying bacteria generally will double in numbers every 15 - 20 hours. This is not really that slow of a growth rate and in a short period of time (4 weeks) the colony population has the potential of numbering in the billions.

 

[Gordo33]

All three are excellent articles, but it is important to remember that these are focused on Aquaria and not on ponds. Slightly different outcomes may present themselves in a Garden Pond venue. For instance, in the first article the author mentions that
"The problem is that both the ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria are very slow growing so it can take 30 to 45 days (usually saltwater takes longer) for the bacteria to become naturally established.....".
This may be true in Aquariums, but a Garden Pond will fully cycle in about four (4) weeks (with fish) at optimum temperature. Nitrifying bacteria generally will double in numbers every 15 - 20 hours. This is not really that slow of a growth rate and in a short period of time (4 weeks) the colony population has the potential of numbering in the billions.

The 4 week pond cycle at optimum temp, what is optimum temp ? The articles I referenced mention elevating aquarium temp to 82-86 degrees to help accelerate the cycle. Once cycled reduce temp specific to fish. With my pond in the northeast i don't believe the pond temps would reach near 80 degrees until mid summer. So my question is will a pond located in cooler climates take longer to cycle than a pond in your region. If so the time frame would be similar to those mentioned in the articles.

I believe one of the articles discussed pH affect on the nitrogen cycle. Typically aquariums are at lower pH than ponds. If my memory is correct the cycle will diminish significantly as pH approaches 6 due to ammonia changing to a less toxic form. Most aquariums are in 6.6-7.6 range

Do you think another reason a pond may cycle quicker is greater amount of media available for the bb to colonize and surface area increasing O2 levels.

Aquarium cycling used to be strictly with fish but majority now use fishless cycle. I don't believe there is a difference in time to cycle between these methods. Just not sacrificing fish

My back round here is limited but I find this fascinating. How a life cycle develops to sustain living organisms is amazing. It's unreal what we take for granted and that the majority of us are naive to all to goes on around us.

I learn a ton reading your posts on this site and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The 4 week pond cycle at optimum temp, what is optimum temp ? The articles I referenced mention elevating aquarium temp to 82-86 degrees to help accelerate the cycle. Once cycled reduce temp specific to fish. With my pond in the northeast i don't believe the pond temps would reach near 80 degrees until mid summer. So my question is will a pond located in cooler climates take longer to cycle than a pond in your region. If so the time frame would be similar to those mentioned in the articles.

The lower the water temperature, the longer it will take to completely cycle.

I believe one of the articles discussed pH affect on the nitrogen cycle. Typically aquariums are at lower pH than ponds. If my memory is correct the cycle will diminish significantly as pH approaches 6 due to ammonia changing to a less toxic form. Most aquariums are in 6.6-7.6 range

As pH is lowered, less of the TAN is free Ammonia. More importantly, however, is the fact that Nitrosomonas is severely restricted in Ammonia oxidation. See chart below-

Do you think another reason a pond may cycle quicker is greater amount of media available for the bb to colonize and surface area increasing O2 levels.

Yes, these two factors would certainly affect the cycle time.

My back round here is limited but I find this fascinating. How a life cycle develops to sustain living organisms is amazing. It's unreal what we take for granted and that the majority of us are naive to all to goes on around us.

Any discussion on this subject is, IMO, infinitely more important than most of the superfluous and transient things that most people seem to value. What is mind-boggling is for all of the research that has been done on just this one subject-The Nitrogen Cycle-new discoveries are still being made. Nitrospira and Archaea have been found to be the overall majority players, instead of NItrosomonas and Nitrobacter. A new player, the extent of influence is still being researched, just recently identified is Nitrotoga arctica which is known to oxidize Nitrite at temperatures approaching freezing. This in itself suggests that there must also be an Ammonia oxidizer that is active at these temperature. Where else would the Nitrite come from? Each discovery leads to more questions and more discoveries.

 

[MitchM]

Gordo33, I would be vey interested in the progress of your discus tank, please post the progress in the indoor tank section of this forum. https://www.gardenpondforum.com/forums/indoor-tanks.31/

 

[Gordo33]

Gordo33, I would be vey interested in the progress of your discus tank, please post the progress in the indoor tank section of this forum. https://www.gardenpondforum.com/forums/indoor-tanks.31/

Ok will post progress of fishless cycle at indoor tanks section