Can't find the leak!

[Cdsdave]

Hi all. I am having a similar problem as mgmine is having with his pond. My water level keeps dropping. About 6in in 7 days. I have a waterfall with about a 2ft drop no additional features. I have checked all the plumbing, have checked around the liner where the rocks are(at this point the water level has dropped below that area). I was in my wet suit yesterday for an hour checking the bottom drain(with the pump off) using milk in test tubes and releasing it around the opening. No apparent draw into the drain. I took the rocks off the waterfall to see if there was a hole there but none. Today I removed more rocks from around the liner hoping to find a hole but nothing. After that I dug next to the plumbing that comes up from the bottom drain looking for leaks or very wet dirt. Nothing. My concern is a leak in the plumbing under the pond. I am going to get in the pond again and check the entire bottom for soft spots.

If it turns out to be the plumbing on the bottom drain what can be done to fix it? Remove the fish, water, and lift up the liner is my one option. Any other ideas out there? If I need to remove the fish I can put the 8 Goldie's in my 65 gallon tank but I don't have a place for my 4 koi that are about a foot long. Any suggestions for them? How about a temporary kiddie pool or something? Again any suggestions would be great!!

THANKS!!

 

[JohnHuff]

Hi:
Sorry to hear that. Leaks are everyone's nightmare.
I think the first step is to try and localize whether it's a static leak or the leak comes when the water is moving. Have you tried switching the pumps off to see if it still leaks? I think that would be the first step.

The milk testing is interesting. I'm wondering if the leak is deep underwater whether you can hear it with a stethoscope.

 

[Cdsdave]

I had the pump off for a few hrs today and the level seemed stable. Once I turned it back on, and checked it approx. 30-45 min later the level dropped slightly. For the most part I have kept it running to keep the filtration going. I will shut it off for the night and see if the level changes by morning. I wasn't sure if something was plugging the leak once the water stopped and comes free when its running? Going in the pond now while I still have some light!!

 

[Tula]

I share your pain I've been losing a small amount of water since I had the new skimmer put in. I thought it was the water fall, but it isn't. Very maddening......but mine stops a little below the fill point, so I can wait it out till Spring.

Wishing you good luck and I'll be following your updates Kim

 

[Cdsdave]

Right now I'm switching gears and considering housing the fish inside for the winter. This will give me time to properly diagnose where the leak is and the best course of action. One thought I'm having is this; since I plan on adding onto the pond I may just buy a larger liner,remove the bottom drain and go right over the existing pond liner. This way I am doubling up the liner thickness for 75 % of the pond and removing the hassle of seaming two liners together. I also will most likely avoid putting in another bottom drain in lieu of one of those "after market" bottom drains.

 

[Tula]

Cdsdave,

I just responded to your other thread about what size you might need to over winter your koi inside.

I've just discovered the most likely source of my pond leak this afternoon. It is related to my recent skimmer installation I think my entire skimmer is sinking!!! Pond guy sent tow flunkies out today....who are returning in the am. Hmmmmm....not sure what will be decided.

Are you thinking you will not install a bottom drain with the new liner? I do not have one, although I know most koi purist have them. I do fine without it. Kim

 

[Cdsdave]

I am considering a vacuum bottom drain. This way I don't have to cut a hole in the liner. I did the bottom drain to conceal the plumbing. If I do the vacuum drain I will have to get creative in hiding the plumbing. Other thought is no drain and just use a pool vacuum occasionally. Got all winter to figure this one out

That stinks about your skimmer. I like to do my own work just because I don't necessarily trust someone else to do it, and I work for free. I woder if they dug too deep, realized it and back filled? Now the skimmer is settling. Hope it gets resolved quickly!!

Thanks for your input!!

 

[Tula]

I think you are exactly right - they dug too deep. I watched a video on installing a Savio skimmer and I know mine is too low. We paid to have this done, as we thought an experienced pond guy would do it well and quickly Lesson learned....not sure what we'll do at this point.

I've not heard of a vacuum drain, will have to read up on it. I've been reading reviews on pond vacuums and so far they have been mixed. I'm going to use my long pool net to scoop out the small amount of debris on the bottom on my pond for now.

I think you've got a good plan to over winter yours inside and take the winter to figure things out. Kim

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Can you (Have you) bypassed the Water fall completly and let it run if you still lose water then it is before the water fall.

If the laek is at the sides then the water will only go down so far and stop if it is at the bottom then it will keep leaking untill empty.

Can you cap/cover the bottom drain get some line run it out from the bottom to the pump and run it and test to see if the leak is in the bottom drain or under the pond.

Ruben

 

[Cdsdave]

Hi Ruben. I didn't bypass the waterfall, but I did remove all the rock covering the area that the water runs down. The back side of the waterfall is open and the amount of water loss(6in in a week) should have been apparent if it we from that area.

I thought of capping the drain but was concerned I wouldn't get a water tight seal on it and would end up with a false reading. I have shut down the pump for hours at a time(12 hrs) and recorded no water loss. Today after nearly 12hrs of the pump running I lost 3/4 in. This leads me to believe the leak is under the pond in the plumbing. The rest of the plumbing is above ground and has no leaks.

I will have to do some excavating around the back of the falls just to verify its not leaking from there. That would be ideal but just feel a few hundred gallons of water would have worked its way out of the waterfall area by now.

Thanks for your thoughts!!

 

[fishin4cars]

By what I'm reading and your describing I would say it's probably not the Bottom drain line. It would be under virtually the same pressure when you are pumping and when you are not so the loss should have still been about the same if it was the BD line. If it's not in the water fall stream area then the next most probable area by the information posted would be in the line from the pump to the waterfall/ or in other words the line with the most pressure when the pump is on.

Before checking all that I would remove some rocks toward the bottom of the falls near the edge of the surface of the pond. Try and lift the liner enough to be able to feel the soil behind the fall liner at the lowest point before it enters the pond. Two things to think about and although obvious, Sometimes not so simple to think about when dealing with a issue like this. Water will always take a path of least resistance. and water always flows downward by the pull of gravity. When I'm looking for a leak like this I first try and find the area of concern, this may mean starting at the bottom of the pond and working upward. If the bottom is soft, work your way toward the waterfall, If that area is hard and dry work toward the skimmer or area that the plumbing is located. then if not there, well it's for sure time to start looking for a possible puncture in the liner itself.

 

[Cdsdave]

Thanks Fishin. All the plumbing is exposed from before the pump all the way to the spillway. No leaks there. I removed all the rocks on the waterfall felt the area but no soft spots. I would have to think if its in the waterfall water would have to leak out the backside. When I built the pond I used concrete block and cement to build the shape of the falls then put dirt underlayment and liner on top. I know concrete is porous but cannot imagine it absorbing that much water.

I've used a 4ft piece of rebar and probed the ground around the pond looking for "soft" areas. None. Also have checked thoroughly around the skimmer. I hear what your saying about the water pressure so I will continue to check above ground locals before going under the pond. I used milk to see if I could locate a leak in the liner but no luck. I also have been in the pond twice feeling around the liner for soft spots but none. Going whacky here.

I'm going to bring the fish in for the winter and go to town on this pond to find the leak!!

Pic shows back of spillway

 

[Cdsdave]

I took the remaining rocks off the waterfall and still couldn't find the leak. At this point it seems to have stopped losing water so I'm assuming its somewhere along the liner at that depth.