? Causes for clamped fins & lethargy OTHER THAN water quality?

[Mmathis]

@Dave 54
@fishin4cars
and of course, anyone else who reads this

Yesterday I noticed that one of my GF just didn't look like it felt good: clamped fins, lethargic, color off just a little, no interest in food.

I moved him and got a chance to examine him. Didn't see any outward signs of any problems. No sores or torn fins. No red spots or "spidery" spots. No rapid [or slowed] breathing, and both gills seemed fine and worked in tandem [I didn't look inside -- not skilled enough nor comfortable enough for that, yet]. No pine-coning. No foreign bodies stuck to him. Gills looked very dark pink from outside, but he's one of those fish that has patches of "clear skin" [like a Shubunkin] where you would normally be able to see through his operculum. Anyway, checked all I could think of to check for, and nothing stood out.

Did a scrape -- more on that in a different post, I suppose -- and got TONs more mucus than I usually get when I scrape a GF, but no clue as to what I was seeing in the scope.

The water tested [and has been testing] good: ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrate=trace, pH, KH=I don't recall the numbers, but were WNL for my water. Water temp around 82F (our local heat index was 106F yesterday!).

I moved him inside, into my 20 gal. I let him "chill" in there for a while before I examined him. Then took him out for the exam, did a salt dip [or bath??] and while he was in that, I freshened the tank water then added salt.

This morning he seems a little more responsive and is swimming a little bit on his own, and has more color. Occassionally still clamps his dorsal, but not all the time like he was, and overall doesn't look half-dead like he did last night.
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BACKGROUND: and this set-up is only temporary

The pond was drained over a month ago [renovations] and all 30 GF are currently in a 300 gal. Rubbermaid stock tank. I have a mature filter [my 100 gal, Rubbermaid SKIPPY] going with >600 GPH pump, 2 air stones in the SKIPPY, and 2 air stones in the tank with the fish. There are plants in the tank. They get fed once a day [sometimes less] or I throw in some duckweed.

Water quality in the stock tank has been perfect with only traces of nitrates. I do a partial water change at least once a week.

This particular fish was one I purchased online a while back -- one of 3. He's a Wakin, maybe 4" long [body length, not tail]. He was one of 3. They stayed in QT for 4 1/2 weeks before going in with the rest of the fish. I lose track of time, but that was a couple of weeks ago. Until yesterday, none of the fish showed any signs of distress.
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So, if it's not a water quality issue......

• What else might this be, and what else should I be examining for?
• Are there any other things I could be for looking for in general?
• Are there any other actions to take for this fish?
• and same for the other fish in the stock tank -- I don't want them to all get sick, too!

Sorry this is so long, but I know y'all would be asking all of those questions anyway. I tried to Google this, but the results I got didn't really help, or at least didn't answer the questions I really wanted answered.

 

[fishin4cars]

To me your taking everything in the right direction. No way to positively tell exactly what is going on, but you are doing exactly what I would recommend. You've learned a lot and it shows! If you have found something that seems to be working stick with it. Seperating it from the rest and watching it by itself is a great way to monitor and also lessen the chance that it might spread.

 

[Dave 54]

To me your taking everything in the right direction. No way to positively tell exactly what is going on, but you are doing exactly what I would recommend. You've learned a lot and it shows! If you have found something that seems to be working stick with it. Seperating it from the rest and watching it by itself is a great way to monitor and also lessen the chance that it might spread.

Yes I totally agree with fishing for cars on this keep it up TurtleMommy we are proud of you

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

To me your taking everything in the right direction. No way to positively tell exactly what is going on, but you are doing exactly what I would recommend. You've learned a lot and it shows! If you have found something that seems to be working stick with it. Seperating it from the rest and watching it by itself is a great way to monitor and also lessen the chance that it might spread.

Yes I totally agree with fishing for cars on this keep it up TurtleMommy we are proud of you

Dave

Thanks! Sometimes I feel like I'm just going through the motions, but at least I don't panic like I used to.....

1. Any ideas what might be going on? What else can I watch for?
2. What concentration of salt should I be using in the tank? It's a 20 gal tank.
3. How long should I isolate this guy?
4. Can I feed him?

 

[fishin4cars]

1 -A -No 1-B Watch for redness in the fins, heavy breathing, white mucus of film on the skin. (You are probably seeing heavier than normal, that's fine as lone as the film doesn't become white and starts to look like it's peeling off. Usually associated with ammonia of chemical reaction which it doesn't sound like
2 20 gallon between two and four tablespoons
3 2-8 weeks, use your judgment, if it looks like it's fine give it at least a week or two past that. If you actually see a problem and can identify, 6-8 weeks after all looks good.
4 yes, just feed extra light and make sure he eats what you feed and that you keep up with water quality.
5 take a scrape and scope again in 3-5 days and see if there is any difference, . If there is a breakout you should either see a growth in the amount of that particular creature on the slide, if it's getting better. well, it will look normal(what ever that means) LOL

 

[Mmathis]

This might sound a bit off-the-beaten-trail, but is it possible for a GF to injure its mouth? Or, what about a foreign object?

I tried feeding him a green pea. He went after it, acted like he was going to bite into it, then turned away. I offered him a few flakes and he did the same thing. I don't know if he was in pain, uncomfortable, not hungry, or what, but.......

I noticed that he didn't open his mouth very wide at all. I know that he can and has had a very big, finger-sucking mouth, so this is a change from his "normal."

 

[Dave 54]

I have had a koi suck in a pebble before now TurtleMommy we had to put him under to get it back out again then another one who ate one of those stickers you clip your hoses onto in aquariums the same again so it may be an idea to get a good look in this guys mouth just to see if there is anything stuck
If there is put him under Anesthetic and gently hook it out

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

I have had a koi suck in a pebble before now TurtleMommy we had to put him under to get it back out again then another one who ate one of those stickers you clip your hoses onto in aquariums the same again so it may be an idea to get a good look in this guys mouth just to see if there is anything stuck
If there is put him under Anesthetic and gently hook it out

Dave

He is one of my bigger goldies, so might be easy to handle him, and get a good look inside. I checked at a couple of local pharmacies for Oil of Clove, which no one seems to have. They suggested health food stores.

I'll also need to find some very fine tweezers..... Last thing I want to do is [if there is anything in there] poke it further in!

I was mystified as to WHAT he could get in his mouth, as the stock tank has a bare-bottom. But then I recalled that I have some crushed oyster shell in there, in a bag, but some of that may have oozed out.....

FISH UPDATE: I checked on him a little while ago. Just a quick check, so didn't observe him for mouth movement, but his dorsal is sailing high and he no longer had that glassy-eyed look! [Maggie's doing flips!]

 

[bettasngoldfish]

No further advice except just wanted to mention that I buy clove oil from a health food store (so they are correct on that) and when you get tweezers try and find ones that are round on the ends. I have a pair and I love them (use them for feeding blood worms to my bettas)

Glad to hear your fish is starting to look better

 

[Mmathis]

So far, so good. I never did get the chance to get the clove oil for a proper exam, but kept him in observation. He started acting normal, even swimming to the front of the tank when I would check on him. Today, I put him back in with the rest of the fish, and when I fed this evening, he was right there with the rest of the fishies, waiting to eat -- seemed, looked, and acted like nothing was ever wrong with him.

 

[fishin4cars]

Your getting better and better at this!

 

[Mmathis]

Your getting better and better at this!

Thank you! But still don't know what its problem was...... May never know.

 

[fishin4cars]

May not, But if your going to really do much good you have to react quick and be efficient in treating. You've learned so much in what to look for, water quality, clamped fins, bloody fins, etc. Then you react. Not just a guess but a process of elimination you knock out the most obvious possibilities. In the process what did you do. Separated, got in clean water and observed. TurtleMommy is well on her way on being the Fish Dr.

 

[Mmathis]

May not, But if your going to really do much good you have to react quick and be efficient in treating. You've learned so much in what to look for, water quality, clamped fins, bloody fins, etc. Then you react. Not just a guess but a process of elimination you knock out the most obvious possibilities. In the process what did you do. Separated, got in clean water and observed. TurtleMommy is well on her way on being the Fish Dr.

LOL! I just started another thread about clamped fins and how that is merely a SYMPTOM of a problem that needs to be checked out. I nursing we are taught to look at the patient "as a whole." You look at patients symptoms, vital signs, history, your physical exam, how they are acting, as well as lab & x-Ray values. All of that TOGETHER paints your story.

Fish are just these weird little creatures that live in water. They can't talk to us, or bark/meow like our dogs or cats would to let you know what hurts..... It's a different world, there, man!