Goldfish dying in pond

[JohnHuff]

Google "strawberry pot trickle tower". Trickle Tower filters are 10 to 30 times better at converting ammonia and nitrite than the 55 gal drum submerged filters. These submerged media filters are a very old concept in filtering. Better choices have been developed since then. And the TT designs are way easier to build and pretty much self cleaning (which is one reason why they work so much better.
An even better ammonia/nitrite converter is a Shower filter. These can be too noisy for some people, but in a small setup maybe not too bad. Google "planter bakki shower pond filter" for a bunch of cheap and easy DIY solutions.

Have you thought about using this as your sig? It would save you a lot of typing.

Inches of fish per gallon may be a nice rule of thumb, but it's meaningless in practice. The amount of food being fed is way more important. 100" of fish being fed once a week vs 100" of fish on an auto feeder being fed 8-12 times per day...way different. Also the type of filter makes a huge difference. The inches rules came about many years ago when bio filters were pretty crappy, and I could understand the correlation. If you have a crappy bio filter then you're relying 100% on the pond surface to provide ammonia/nitrite conversion, so it made sense to limit fish to a pond's size. But we have way better bio filters today.

That's good news to me as I'm overstocked.

 

[crsublette]

Doh!! Waterbug is right, lol. I have dinking around with planning my shower tower and completely forgot about mentioning trickle tower. Also, ya can get creative with the boxes if ya want the tower to look nice. However, take note that these towers will be subject to wind so let this be a variable when you are designing the tower. Also, the towers will cool down your water tremendously if your winters get quite cool.

Inches of fish per gallon may be a nice rule of thumb, but it's meaningless in practice. The amount of food being fed is way more important. 100" of fish being fed once a week vs 100" of fish on an auto feeder being fed 8-12 times per day...way different. Also the type of filter makes a huge difference. The inches rules came about many years ago when bio filters were pretty crappy, and I could understand the correlation. If you have a crappy bio filter then you're relying 100% on the pond surface to provide ammonia/nitrite conversion, so it made sense to limit fish to a pond's size. But we have way better bio filters today.

It's starting to becoming a big problem on the internet...old information. Use modern information or be needlessly stuck with the same problems people had 10-20 years ago.

Meh, I think static "inch of fish rule of thumbs" are geared toward beginners so they do not get them self into trouble from the begining. After everything I have learned, it would seem common sense that a static "inch of fish rule" is worthless.

From what I have read, bio-filters and feedings and viable surface area determine the "inch of fish rule of thumb" since bio-filters bacteria colony volume are built according to the ammonia production by the fish population in comparison of water volume. I would think very nice bio-filters with more surface area and oxygen availability appropriately adjust this rule of thumb to be higher.

If no bio-filter is present, then I bet the "inch of fish rule" is determined by the amount of pond underwater surface area.

I bet also the number of times pellet feeding, if ya feed them, occurs also adjusts the rule.

A 5 gallon bio-filter will process less ammonia than a 55 gallon barrel bio-filter since ya can put much more surface area media into a 55 gallon barrel. All bio-filters have their limitations even fluidized bio-filters and shower/trickle towers.

I have not yet found that "one size fits all" bio-filter that is the best in the world to process any volume of ammonia, at least not that I am aware of.

It would be interesting to read an article that has calculated all of this so we can have an "adjustable inch-of-fish rule calculator".

I posted it to give a sense of perspective. Of course, bio-filters, feedings, surface area, and other variables change this perspective.

 

[KB1ankenship]

I looked up the strawberry pot trickle tower, and really liked it. The one I saw was filled with lava rock, and had a fountain head at the top to have the water run down through the strawberry pot. Is lava rock a good filter media, or is there something that may work better?

For my 150 gallon pond, what capacity pump would I need for proper flow and circulation? The 2 pumps I have are very small, moving 140 gallons per hour. Would that be enough, or do I need a higher capacity pump?

 

[KB1ankenship]

I went out to do an updated fish count, moving all my rocks around a little to see if I had any fish hiding under them, and I now only see 3 koi, 6 goldfish, and my 1 sucker fish. I'm not sure, but one of my goldfish looks as if its about to have little ones.

I have not added any chemicals other than the Ammo Lock since last weekend, just doing the constant water change, and my water is still clear, with some green coming in on the rocks. Here is what it is looking like now:











I have the water staying clear without any chemicals which is a good start. Before I was doing the constant water change, my water would be like pea soup by now without the chemicals.

Since it seems the only obstacle to get over now is my ammonia levels, and hopefully, the strawberry pot filter will solve that problem once i get it set up.

 

[pecan]

You are gettin there! Keep us posted. BTW, a little algae on the bottom and rocks is not harmful, helps to clean the water a tiny bit and gives the fish something to munch on.

 

[JohnHuff]

KB, your water looks crystal clear now! Will you be adding any plants to the pond?

So crsublette and WB, what are the rules of thumb for adding TT's, showers to a pond? Is there a ratio/ROT or gallons, inches of fish, etc. to amount of media, etc.? I've seen a lot of builds but no one has ever mentioned how they calculate what size to build.

 

[HARO]

KB1;
That little brown goldfish probably has dropsy. :sad:
John

 

[crsublette]

Pecan is correct, keep a bit of the algae. If ya don't like how the algae starts to get heavy and hiding some of the rock's color, then ya can get a toilet brush to wipe or dip some of it out.

welp KB1, your fish load is getting better. Now, assuming your fish grow a bit, ya now potentially can have around 5.6 inches of fish per 10 gallons. This sounds like something that is doable once ya get your bio-filter working. Keep using the ammonia binder until ya finally have your bio-filter ready to go so that ya don't lose anymore fish due to ammonia. Also keep your feedings to a minimum, like I guess once a day or once every 2 days.

For my 150 gallon pond, what capacity pump would I need for proper flow and circulation? The 2 pumps I have are very small, moving 140 gallons per hour. Would that be enough, or do I need a higher capacity pump?

I have been told that the water should be "turned over" at the very least 2 times a hour. "turned over" i mean amount of water being pushed through your pump. So, a 140gph pump would turn 150 gallons almost one time a hour and sounds like you will be ok since ya are using two 140gph pump. I don't know why the "turned over" concept exists. I guess something about properly filtering the water, i don't know.

KB, your water looks crystal clear now! Will you be adding any plants to the pond?

KB1, ya can create a little bog in a very small 20 or 50 gallon stock tank. Have the water pumped from your pond into the bottom of the bog stock tank then, drill a couple holes at the top of the tank, so that the water gravity flows back into the pond. Bogs will help with the filtration and less algae will grow on the plants. If ya put some fully submerged oxygenator plants like Parrot's Feather or Maris Tail or Anacharis, then they will grow algae that your fish might eat but I am told the Koi just might tear these up. On my oxygenators, I have been just gently ruffling the plants to knock off the algae when I see algae growing on the plants; this seems to have worked so far since I have only had to do it once a week.

I am told plants help to slow down the growth of algae and I am also told plants do extremely little. So, meh, plants are pretty so go for it KB1. If your fully submerged plants start getting all brown due to algae growth on them, then just ruffle them up a little to knock off the algae. Assuming your Koi allow them to live.

So crsublette and WB, what are the rules of thumb for adding TT's, showers to a pond? Is there a ratio/ROT or gallons, inches of fish, etc. to amount of media, etc.? I've seen a lot of builds but no one has ever mentioned how they calculate what size to build.

Oh, I have no idea. From what I have read, folk would use pond gallons to determine the volume of bio-media you put into the trays and then ya just choose your preferred structure where the water can do its work, evenly falling, over the medium. Honestly, using pond gallons to determine bio-media volume, this does not make sense to me since 1 gallon of water with 20 inches of fish, bi-weekly feedings, and low pH produce much less ammonia compared to 1 gallon of water with 50 inches of fish, daily feedings, and high pH.

I think the best rule of thumb with bio-filtering is ... if you are still registering any noticeable ammonia, then you need more bio-media and make sure most of the medium is being wetted.

KB1;
That little brown goldfish probably has dropsy. :sad:
John

Yeah, KB1, check out a thread made by Koiguy1969 about Practical Pond Fish Medicine. If it is dropsy, see if there is anything ya can do to help your fishies if they are sick. With experiencing so much death and ammonia and stress in the pond, then would not suprise me if some sort of bad business might have started in the water. Don't get all scared and dont' overreact if ya think your fish are suffereing from something; the folk here in the illness and disease section will point ya in the right direction. And try to stay away from using salt in your pond !! some pond medications require zero salt or extremely low salinity.

 

[crsublette]

I looked up the strawberry pot trickle tower, and really liked it. The one I saw was filled with lava rock, and had a fountain head at the top to have the water run down through the strawberry pot. Is lava rock a good filter media, or is there something that may work better?

lol. I saw the exact same setup when I was doing my research on trickle/shower towers.

Sure, lava rock will work. I have read some using lava rock with a level of success. Lava rock almost looks like a ceramic fired media called Bacteria House (which is supposedly the "best media in the world" ). Other cermaic media like alfagrog (also called supra) also kind of look like Lava Rock. Seems like Lava rock would work.

Heh, there is always something that will work better ... real question to ask is, how much money ya willing to spend?

 

[KB1ankenship]

Yes, I plan on adding plants as soon as I am able. My girlfriend and I plan on going to the nursery when able to do that. I do think I'm going to go with the strawberry pot idea, so that with the constant water change will do the trick.

As for my goldfish with dropsy, how do you give a goldfish antibiotics, and do you get those at a pet store? Just curious as to how that works.

 

[Waterbug]

Have you thought about using this as your sig? It would save you a lot of typing.

:chair:

 

[Waterbug]

A 5 gallon bio-filter will process less ammonia than a 55 gallon barrel bio-filter since ya can put much more surface area media into a 55 gallon barrel.

If talking about static submerged media...the smaller filter could be surprising because the media has more access to O2 which has always been the limiting factor with static submerged media. Surface area is of no use if low O2 doesn't allow bacteria to grow there.

 

[Waterbug]

I looked up the strawberry pot trickle tower, and really liked it. The one I saw was filled with lava rock, and had a fountain head at the top to have the water run down through the strawberry pot. Is lava rock a good filter media, or is there something that may work better?

At the time things were first new to pond keepers everyone had just learned about surface area and the thinking was more surface area = better filter. Lava rock has more surface area than say river rock, so lava rock was assumed to be better. But over the next several years the concept of surface area became less of a focus because people were seeing the tiny little pores in things like lava rock were clogging. There was still some clean rock of course so the they still work well, but max surface area has become to be seen as a problem in many cases.

Today you rarely read high fish load keeper ever talk about surface area. It just isn't the limiting factor. They now talk about it in more general terms like the size of a TT or Shower filter, but not the media itself. However people are using Feather Rock in shower filters which does have high surface area, but I'm not sure if they're using it because it's lighter. Maybe in a Shower filter the shape of the nooks allow for better cleaning. Time will tell.

For me I would prefer smooth granite type rocks, the kind found in many backyards. Smaller sizes, like maybe marble, but larger do work. Whatever works for the container. I think the net result, after a year or two of use is actually more useable surface area than the higher initial surface areas of other media including the high tech stuff. The high tech stuff has a place in some environments, very clean water environments, where media can be replaced often, etc... But water gardens have a lot of organic material and tends to clog the tiny pores pretty fast.

 

[crsublette]

For me I would prefer smooth granite type rocks, the kind found in many backyards. Smaller sizes, like maybe marble, but larger do work. Whatever works for the container. I think the net result, after a year or two of use is actually more useable surface area than the higher initial surface areas of other media including the high tech stuff. The high tech stuff has a place in some environments, very clean water environments, where media can be replaced often, etc... But water gardens have a lot of organic material and tends to clog the tiny pores pretty fast.

Sounds like ya are describing pea gravel. I never thought of this, but yeah should work and cheaper. If ya got the money, ya can get the K1 kaldness, K3 kaldness, and the fancier bio-balls.

Pretty sure this is why I said a good muck pre-filter of water before it goes into the tower to reduce the clogging ... after thinking about it, with all the junk wind can blow in, it would be best to not use the medium that has small pores if the tower is outside in the elements.

If talking about static submerged media...the smaller filter could be surprising because the media has more access to O2 which has always been the limiting factor with static submerged media. Surface area is of no use if low O2 doesn't allow bacteria to grow there.

Hmm, not following ya. It seems they would both consume it the same since the water is never stagnant. It is just that, due to the lack of O2, not all of the surface area on the big filter is utilized ... unless an aerator with a fine bubble diffuser is added to the 55 gallon where the initial formation, not the travel up, of the fine bubbles help to oxygenate the water.

 

[crsublette]

As for my goldfish with dropsy, how do you give a goldfish antibiotics, and do you get those at a pet store? Just curious as to how that works.

If ya don't get an answer here ... I would post this question again in the " illness and disease " forum section along with a picture of the fish in question.