Hi from Montana!

[rebelangel_3733]

Welcome mtpond! We here in Nebraska have been having an unusally warm winter too and I'm luvin it!

 

[koiguy1969]

welcome aboard....glad to have you with us.

 

[Catfishnut]

Welcome mtpond! We here in Nebraska have been having an unusally warm winter too and I'm luvin it!

Rebel,

I see that you were here, too... I have to reply to your post. The weather here in Nebraska is GREAT compared to the past few years, isn't it?

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

Your surface stays at 36F and the bottom moves between 39F and 45F in a day? It's difficult to come up with an explaination for that. First I thought well maybe the density of 39F and 45F are close to each other, so I checked and they're not close. 36F and 42F would be close to equal. But then that would mean, I assume, there is a layer of 39F, the heaviest, stuck in the middle. And with pumping going on to boot.

Also, that large a pond shouldn't be able to gain so much in such a short period.

My assumption for now has to be the readings aren't accurate. Thanks for trying though.

Waterbug,

I am curious, too. But, I think that the bottom of the pond would be warmer as the ground temperature should be higher than the air temp. So, depending upon how much water circulation there is, I would expect the bottom to be warmer always. That being due to the insulation factor and the heat from the earth. But, there is one other thing to consider. Which is that when water nears the freezing point, it has a special quality that no other element does. It expands, rather than contracting, that makes it less dense. Which is why ice forms on the surface of a lake or pond instead of the bottom. So at or near the freezing point, the coldest water must be nearer the surface.

I wouldn't think that it would be noticeable at outdoor air temperatures well above freezing (like at 37°F), but maybe it starts setting itself up this way because the bottom of the pond gets the heat from the earth and the surface is exposed to the outdoor air and wind. During the daylight hours, obviously, the sunlight that hits the pond will pass through the water to the bottom and be absorbed by the darker color liner of the pond, thus heating the water at the bottom moreso than at the surface.

If everyone's temperature readings are to be taken as accurate, then there must be an explanation. The facts that I cited above are as close as I can come to explaining this. I cannot say that I am right, but there is a lot of evidence that leans this way. The only water that disagrees with me here is the ocean saltwater. Since saltwater doesn't freeze at the normal temperature, the colder water can and will sink to a lower level, at least up to a point. Without the saline factor of our oceans, the Haline conveyor would not operate and we would re-enter another ice age. That is a theory that some oceanographers and earth science folks hold with. I happen to agree with them.

I don't know if you agree with me, Waterbug, but this is the best reasoning that I can come up with off the cuff. I don't know how else to explain it. I don't think that it is critically important to a pond owner, but I think that everything is worthy of investigation. For someone in a very cold clime, it might be important. What are your own opinions?

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

MTpond,

What part of Montana do you hail from? How cold do you get normally?

A warm WELCOME to you! Hope your weather this year is treating you as well as our Nebraska weather is treating us so far this winter. We've been quite lucky, hope you are, too.

Gordy

 

[mtpond]

I am from Kalispell. Top of the state in the north west.. I am about 75 miles from Canada. My hubby is telling me 21 but I remember when we had baby goats it was way below 0. Hardly no snow and I'm loving it too. It snowed a little last night and nothing today, They are saying its going to snow for the next 5 days. But today nothing.

 

[Waterbug]

Gordy, you're on the same track as me but to put an exact number on it the heavest freshwater water is about 39F. So 36F to 45F means the heavest water is in the middle and that's not really possible under the conditions I know about. Maybe there's something else. But these are pretty tight ranges to measure so I'm having to assume getting good readings is more difficult than I thought.

The warm water at the bottom next to the warm water is the thinking I most often read in forums, but doesn't match what I read in more scientific places. So I think it's a myth.

 

[mtpond]

We got about 2 1/2 inches tonight. It was like a blizzard outside, it did quit snowing but now whats on the ground is blowing around. My pond is frozen over except for about a 3 x 4 opening. Bottom of pond is 35.9 outside temp is 23 can't read the temp of the water at the top of the pond cause the thermometer is fozen in the ice. That sucks!

 

[sissy]

Well so far no one has had as bad a winter as last winter and no big pond desaster's yet .I just wonder with this mild a winter what spring will bring .For here this has been a normal winter so far .But we still have a way to go before spring so you never know .

 

[Catfishnut]

Well so far no one has had as bad a winter as last winter and no big pond desaster's yet .I just wonder with this mild a winter what spring will bring .For here this has been a normal winter so far .But we still have a way to go before spring so you never know .

Sissy,

We've been having an exceptionally mild winter in the majority of the continental US because of a La Nina this year in the Pacific Ocean combined with the Arctic Oscillation being in a steady positive phase at the same time.

The La Nina means colder water temps in the Pacific Ocean. The positive phase of the Arctic Oscillation means lower pressure over the northern polar region. Both of these effects push winter storms and the colder air northward. Combined together, they amplify each others effects. I cannot explain their existence, but I believe that ocean current cycles, like the Thermo-Haline Conveyor and Solar Activity (sunspots and flares) have a great deal to do with it all. It is not global warming, though, it is just the coincidental occurrence of several natural phenomena. The solar activity might have much more to do with it it all then many people suspect, but I think that it also has to be timed right with several other natural cycles.

Think back at the last two winters. Was it last winter or the previous one, but it was an abnormal event because EVERY state of the US had snow at the same time. Including Hawaii (if you count the mountains). One of those years, we set records here in Nebraska for longest time to have snow on the ground. There's nothing really unique about it from natures standpoint, but to us it was unusually SNOWY and COLD.

This winter is just as unusual and unique from the standpoint that it has been much warmer with very little snow, and I AIN'T COMPLAINING!

We did have ~10" of snow here in the first week or second week of December, but then it got warm and melted it all away. It's been nice ever since, with even a few days near and above 70°F. It's even above normal right now and it is just barely dipping into the teens and single digits at night.

I have seen some winters which were very cold and the daytime high didn't get above zero F for 20 or 30 days. That was cold! There was also winters that I recall being outside in short sleeves and one, when I was a young kid, when I actually had my shoes off and was wading in the ditches trying to catch snapping turtles and fish between Christmas and New Years.

One thing about it, you are right. We still have a ways to go this year to get to spring. At least until the last week of March for me here in Nebraska. Actually, I always consider "winter" to be October 15th to April 15th to be winter here. That's kind of a personal timeline for me as those are the dates that I set for taking down or putting my water well at my cabin. If I adhere to those dates, then I don't ever have to worry about my pump freezing up on me. Actually, it should be October 31st to March 31st, but I add the extra time on both ends to play safe.

There has been some really hard freezes and snowstorms outside of those dates here, so I like to play it safe and avoid frozen pumps and pipes if I can. I am talking outdoor stuff, of course, not indoor plumbing.

Gordy

 

[j.w]

You all may be having mild but it has switched for us here. I think we are getting all you guys snow here..........but don't get me wrong, I like it!

 

[sissy]

It was last winter that was the worst i ever saw here and a lot of states even Florida saw snow .I saw on the internet that there that 3 states had severe storms last night down south of me

 

[rebelangel_3733]

Catfishnut you must be from the west part of Nebraska. This here nebraskan (south east corner of it) would like to say j.w. you can have it I'll share with you! lol We here have only had maybe 3 inches worth of total snowfall this winter..with the most being a few nights ago with probably 2 inches still on the ground. Kinda nice to see, but hate the cold that goes with it! I've lived on this side of nebraska all of my life and the saying of "wait a day and it'll change" is surely true. I can remember as a kid plowing through and digging out snow forts in drift that were 4-6 feet tall...haven't seen that in years now. I'm not complaining though so far this winter, but I'm bettin the farmers will be here shortly with not having much moisture...wonder what spring is gonna be like? Are we going to end up like Texas was last year? I have noticed our storms seem different here than in the past...video'd lots of last years storms and noticed changes in our weather patterns too as well as unusual lightening (some really awesome too). Guess time will tell huh. My pond (which is covered with a tarp for now and everybody/thing is inside the house) finally has some snow covering it. I must have put enough boards across it under the tarp to keep the snow ect out of it.

 

[Catfishnut]

Rebel,

I am actually from your end of Nebraska. North of Fremont, West of Blair. But, we did get two heavy snows here around the 6th / 9th of December (I think it was). 6.5" once and then 3.5 " a few days later. Nothing but a threat of a dusting since then. Recently, the night that you got 2", we barely got enough to tell that it tried to snow. It wasn't even enough to make an ant get out to shovel. It is a bit colder just recently, but still a bit above normal average temps.

Mtpond,

I don't mind a little snow, even 6" is ok if falls nice and gentle. But, I HATE it when it starts to blow! I am far enough away from a main artery that is regularly cleaned by plows and my road turns and twists up and down enough hills that when it starts blowing, it always creates drifts somewhere along my route to civilization. Not that I care much for the civilized world, but I gotta go to work and I gotta buy beer sometime! LOL The past two or three years has found me snowed in on several occasions. A couple of times just because of the wind blowing the snow on the ground. It's difficult to explain to your employer that you are "snowed in" when it didn't snow.

During the 2009/2010 winter, there was one storm here where the wind was just right for my local terrain. One of the roads out of my place had such a huge drift that it was closed for a couple of weeks. The county finally brought out one of those huge V-plows to bust it open. I happened to be outside when he came through and watched it. It was like something out of a sci-fi movie. Took him nearly an entire afternoon to open the road and when done, I could park my truck in the middle of the worst part, stand on top of the cab and not see over the drifts on the sides of the road. The drift was probably 12 feet deep naturally, but after the plow went through and tossed some up to the sides, it was probably 16 feet up the sides or higher. It was like a huge, white tunnel. I don't know why they bothered opening that section of the road as the wind kept blowing and it filled back in every day or night for a week and then it snowed again and they had to start all over.

I had never seen anything quite like that here while I was growing up. I do remember my Dad's story about a blizzard in the mid '30's where they had to crawl out a second floor window and scoop down to open the door of the house. But, I had never seen what the wind can do with the snow in the right terrain. Hope it doesn't happen again before I retire to someplace warmer.

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

Rebel and Mtpond,

Related to the weather, I am just curious. Do you try to keep your pond nearly "fully" operational (with fish) all winter? Or do you transplant your fishes/plants to the indoors until spring and just try to keep the pond structure from damage over winter?

Gordy