Today we mourne the loss of... wait, what?

[Shdwdrgn]

A couple weeks ago we had a big thaw -- coming out of the below-zero temps we've had since Christmas, we were suddenly seeing regular daily temps in the 50's and 60's. Unfortunately as the ice thawed, I saw one of my koi from the year I built the new pond floating belly-up. He was still breathing a bit, so I left him be, after all, what could I do for him at this point? Well the next day he was floating in the plants, so I went to pull him out -- and he swam away! Rinse and repeat for the next couple days. OK fine, he's still trying, I'll just leave him alone. Last Saturday I came outside to find a different picture.

He was down at the end of the stream, laying on the rocks, barely in the water at all, but I could still see his gills moving. Sunday I went outside, and he was still in the same place, just laying there, so I grabbed the camera and snapped some pictures.

Here's a shot with a cat for size reference...

OK fine, I'm not going to just leave him there, so I tried to grab him with the net, and he swam off into the small pool. All right, so I have a zombie fish... Monday I finally scooped him up and brought him back up to the big pond, where he righted himself, and swam back to the other fish. Yesterday, back in the plants. This morning, in the plants again. A little nudge sent him aimlessly careening and then back in the plants again.

After work tonight, I couldn't find him. I search for a few minutes before realizing, he's not floating, he's actually down on the bottom, right-side-up, swimming with the other fish.

I have never seen anything like this. Any fish floating belly-up after such a hard freeze I would expect to have maybe hours left to live -- but this guy just doesn't want to give up! He keeps on truckin', and seems to be getting better. I have no doubts that if he pulls through this he is going to be the strongest fish I have in my pond and probably live the longest. And the way things have been going, I'm actually starting to get some hope that he might just make it.

 

[Big Lou]

Wow, maybe that one has nine lives. Hope it survives.

 

[addy1]

I have heard of goldfish being frozen in ice and surviving. Got fingers crossed for your fish.

 

[Dave 54]

A couple weeks ago we had a big thaw -- coming out of the below-zero temps we've had since Christmas, we were suddenly seeing regular daily temps in the 50's and 60's. Unfortunately as the ice thawed, I saw one of my koi from the year I built the new pond floating belly-up. He was still breathing a bit, so I left him be, after all, what could I do for him at this point? Well the next day he was floating in the plants, so I went to pull him out -- and he swam away! Rinse and repeat for the next couple days. OK fine, he's still trying, I'll just leave him alone. Last Saturday I came outside to find a different picture.

He was down at the end of the stream, laying on the rocks, barely in the water at all, but I could still see his gills moving. Sunday I went outside, and he was still in the same place, just laying there, so I grabbed the camera and snapped some pictures.

Here's a shot with a cat for size reference...

OK fine, I'm not going to just leave him there, so I tried to grab him with the net, and he swam off into the small pool. All right, so I have a zombie fish... Monday I finally scooped him up and brought him back up to the big pond, where he righted himself, and swam back to the other fish. Yesterday, back in the plants. This morning, in the plants again. A little nudge sent him aimlessly careening and then back in the plants again.

After work tonight, I couldn't find him. I search for a few minutes before realizing, he's not floating, he's actually down on the bottom, right-side-up, swimming with the other fish.

I have never seen anything like this. Any fish floating belly-up after such a hard freeze I would expect to have maybe hours left to live -- but this guy just doesn't want to give up! He keeps on truckin', and seems to be getting better. I have no doubts that if he pulls through this he is going to be the strongest fish I have in my pond and probably live the longest. And the way things have been going, I'm actually starting to get some hope that he might just make it.

Could you give us your up to date water perameters please Shdwdgrn as its not normal for koi to do this at all , looking a the koi apart from the fact he's on his side I can see nothing wrong with this koi .
You would expect to see redness of the fins etc if he were ill but I see non of this in the photo , what is the temperature of your water currently please ?
Could you also supply us with some up to date water perameters to give us an idea on your ponds water quality at this present time ?
I've a feeling it has to do with that so my next question will be approximately what depth of water do you have in the area you found him in at the moment and what sort of air temprature have you just been through or is it ongoing intense cold at this moment in time , I ask because you say its been such a hard freeze of late ?
When and if you net him could you try to take a peak at his gill filaments and tell me what colour the are ?

Dave

 

[Shdwdrgn]

Dave -- to begin to answer your questions in general, my term "hard freeze" is relative of course. Some years I don't even bother with heaters in the pond, I just keep the ice cleared back from the waterfall, and the fish do just fine. But we had something like 3-4 weeks of temperatures where the high barely got above 0F so I had put the small floating heater in the water. Unfortunately it failed, and with everything frozen over I had no way to put in the larger heater (I have to take the media out of one of the filter barrels to set it up).

You are correct that there are no obvious ailments of this fish. Not even a bloated belly. My wife suggested swim bladder failure. Just the fact that for the first several days that I saw him like this, he was always belly-up in the water, looking exactly like a dead fish -- so I had no expectations of survival.

The larger pond is only just over 3 feet deep. The smaller pond is about 18" deep so of course none of the fish venture up there in the Winter. The stream itself is maybe 8" deep? And in the picture above where he is laying on the rocks, he was practically out of the water.

 

[Priscilla]

Wow! That was stressful just reading that! Lucky the cat didn't get him!

Good luck! Keep us posted on his status!

 

[Dave 54]

Ouch 3ft in depth, in reality you really need a miimum depth of 4ft or deeper for koi to over winter them safely , I've a feeling its been a mixture of all things tht ails this koi , to shallow water with a prolonged freeze and your heater failing,.
How big would you say he is and how old is he/she?

Dave

 

[sissy]

Seems strange you say that Dave because if you see the aquascapes video's they say 2 ft is more than enough even for there cold winters .Even when the aquascape guy did the thing here he said 2 feet was more than enough here .I even questioned it since it gets so hot here and if your pond is in full sunlight would your fish cook .He said no ,but I don't believe that .They are pro pond builders and did shows on nat geo channel and they live in Michigan ( I think ).I just can't believe fish can survive.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Koi are Carp.....and Carp are one of the world's most durable and adapting fish. Pansies they ain't!!

This particular Koi apparently has undergone extreme stress and is still adapting. Depending on its underlying health it may or may not recover. Only time will tell.

 

[j.w]

@callingcolleen1 mentioned something about her fish laying on their sides in very cold weather and then they snap out of it and are fine.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Every year, same thing, first big drop in temperature some of the goldfish will lay on their side. Never happened ever to the Koi. After a couple weeks they are fine and even when the colder temperature comes they are still fine. All my goldfish always do that, now everyone is fine!

 

[Dave 54]

Koi are Carp.....and Carp are one of the world's most durable and adapting fish. Pansies they ain't!!

This particular Koi apparently has undergone extreme stress and is still adapting. Depending on its underlying health it may or may not recover. Only time will tell.

I could bring you a few experts who would say the opposite your main protagonist would be non oher than Peter Waddington Author of Koi Kichi koi 2 Kichi and nummerous other books.
He argues pashionately that koi should be in water that is heated during the winter months .
Interestingly all Japanese breeders bring their fish indoors for the winter into heated ponds .
I would go so far as to argue that the extreme stress this koi is suffering from is stress brought about by the extreme cold Shdwdrgn talked about at the start of this thread.
The important thing here has to be the survival of the koi with the assistance of Shdwdgrn if necessary.

Dave

 

[Lisak1]

Ponds in our area (zone 5 - Northern Illinois) are generally 24-30 inches deep. Countless koi spend the winter in ponds of that depth in our climate and not only survive, but thrive. We've met koi that are 20 plus years old who have spent every winter in an unheated pond less than 30" deep. I would say those pond keepers are experts in keeping koi in cold weather ponds.

Our pond is about 39" deep at the deepest point. I was out there today in the beautiful 35 degrees F and our fish look great. We do not heat our pond AT ALL, we don't even use a deicer anymore. We run the waterfall all year long. If extreme cold was the cause of Shdwdgrn's problem, my fish would all be floaters too.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I could bring you a few experts who would say the opposite your main protagonist would be non oher than Peter Waddington Author of Koi Kichi koi 2 Kichi and nummerous other books.
He argues pashionately that koi should be in water that is heated during the winter months .
Interestingly all Japanese breeders bring their fish indoors for the winter into heated ponds .
I would go so far as to argue that the extreme stress this koi is suffering from is stress brought about by the extreme cold Shdwdrgn talked about at the start of this thread.
The important thing here has to be the survival of the koi with the assistance of Shdwdgrn if necessary.

Dave

I noted in my comment that this Koi has been under extreme stress. Cyprinus carpio/Koi is by nature a warm water fish. Some may dispute this. but this is how they are classified by the scientific community. That being said, it is also a proven fact that they are adaptable to most any environment as witnessed by their being classified as an invasive/nuisance species in most countries. They adapt to Northern climates by increasing ventricular mass which allows them to survive low water temperatures. In the United States, they have not only adapted, but have proliferated in northern latitudes.
Again, because they are warm water fish, fingerlings and Tosai may not be able to adapt very easily to that first taste of Northern temperatures and some will likely perish, but those that do survive are well on their way to adapting their physiology to Northern latitudes and the accompanying winter temperatures.
This is really the main cause behind fish losses over the winter in Northern climates. Individual fish may have trouble adapting, but the specie, as a whole, is most durable.

 

[Dave 54]

I noted in my comment that this Koi has been under extreme stress. Cyprinus carpio/Koi is by nature a warm water fish. Some may dispute this. but this is how they are classified by the scientific community. That being said, it is also a proven fact that they are adaptable to most any environment as witnessed by their being classified as an invasive/nuisance species in most countries. They adapt to Northern climates by increasing ventricular mass which allows them to survive low water temperatures. In the United States, they have not only adapted, but have proliferated in northern latitudes.
Again, because they are warm water fish, fingerlings and Tosai may not be able to adapt very easily to that first taste of Northern temperatures and some will likely perish, but those that do survive are well on their way to adapting their physiology to Northern latitudes and the accompanying winter temperatures.
This is really the main cause behind fish losses over the winter in Northern climates. Individual fish may have trouble adapting, but the specie, as a whole, is most durable.

I wouldnt say this koi is a fingerling nor Tosia Meyer judgeing the scale I'd say it was a good 16"+ agreed they can adapt, just look at our own koi they had a soft life indoors for 22 years with temperatures in the 20c range throughout that time.
OK admittedly they were heated first winter but after that we use the insulating properties of the materials we used to insulate the pond that keeps them at between 7-9c throughout the winter.
Nor are the Breeders fish allowed outdoors Tosia , well some would be but the majority are large fish brought in to protect them during their fast and sharp winter which is unlike our own Long drawn out ones.
Peter Waddington spent many years with the breeders learning the ways of the "KOI", and teaches those ideas learned in turn from the Breeder.
It appears to me that there are fundamentally two styles of fish keeping Deep water Koi Ponds and Garden Ponds some of us are sticklers for the rules others like @callingcolleen1 "no offense colleen" ripped that book up years ago and yet her fish thrive ,So in reality its a case of you know your fish we know ours, exept both sides of the same coin look at the hobby differently, its the fish thats the common denominator.
Carp will adapt to many water types both in Northern and Southern Climes, one only has to look at New Zealand where they are considered pest to be shot on sight, in Australia they are banned from all but two states with no imports of any new koi being allowed in at all .
Which when you think about things Meyer they may well turn out to be a godsend to Australia in years to come, as I believe their koi are probably totally KHV free
Australia's war against Carp goes on and is getting serious there was talk of introducing KHV to cut down the numbers (dont know if that came to anything).

Dave