Violent Prisoner given fish tank

[Dave 54]

That may well be in the US Max at least in the UK we give a person the benefit of the doubt not grind them into the ground setting them up to fail each and everytime.
My time spent with offenders was with the probation ervic here oin the Southwest focusing on prisoner rehabilitation .
A drunk driver in this country almost never sees a prison sentence if they kill.
To me a drunk or dangerous driver are in acctual fact making their car into a lethal weapon all should see the inside of prison in our view

Dave

 

[max384]

That may well be in the US Max at least in the UK we give a person the benefit of the doubt not grind them into the ground setting them up to fail each and everytime.
My time spent with offenders was with the probation ervic here oin the Southwest focusing on prisoner rehabilitation .
A drunk driver in this country almost never sees a prison sentence if they kill.
To me a drunk or dangerous driver are in acctual fact making their car into a lethal weapon all should see the inside of prison in our view

Dave

This isn't a US vs UK thing. It's an action have consequences thing. When someone commits violent crimes, many (not all, of course) people aren't willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The story you told of the double murderer presumably happened in the UK, and even if it didn't, it was a university in the UK that rescinded his offer, so it's not fair to say it's a US vs UK thing.

I certainly wouldn't want my children going to a university where a faculty or staff member was a convicted double murderer hothead. I'm just not willing to give a known killer the benefit of the doubt. That could be a deadly mistake. If you are, I won't judge you, and I think that's an honorable thing to do, but it's not something I'm personally willing to do. And I don't consider murder to be a mistake either. Some crimes I can absolutely look at as mistakes. Purposely taking someone's life does not fall into "mistake" category.

This being said, I realize that prisoners with release dates need rehabilitation if they are to integrate back into society in some meaningful form. But, I don't think things like television, video games, or pets are things violent prisoners deserve. Even though they need rehab, we have to realize that prison is also punitive in nature.

 

[Dave 54]

This isn't a US vs UK thing. It's an action have consequences thing. When someone commits violent crimes, many (not all, of course) people aren't willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The story you told of the double murderer presumably happened in the UK, and even if it didn't, it was a university in the UK that rescinded his offer, so it's not fair to say it's a US vs UK thing.

I certainly wouldn't want my children going to a university where a faculty or staff member was a convicted double murderer hothead. I'm just not willing to give a known killer the benefit of the doubt. That could be a deadly mistake. If you are, I won't judge you, and I think that's an honorable thing to do, but it's not something I'm personally willing to do. And I don't consider murder to be a mistake either. Some crimes I can absolutely look at as mistakes. Purposely taking someone's life does not fall into "mistake" category.

This being said, I realize that prisoners with release dates need rehabilitation if they are to integrate back into society in some meaningful form. But, I don't think things like television, video games, or pets are things violent prisoners deserve. Even though they need rehab, we have to realize that prison is also punitive in nature.

It has been proven that when giving a prisoner a good cause like the talapia or the dog training sceme in the US , you say its not a US UK thing there are murderers who get a full life scentence, they have been proven to so far beyond reabiltitation they will die in prison.
Yes it does happen that some kill again sadly thats can abnd does happen but the majority go on to live a good life.
I have a friend who killed his best friend who is beyond rehabiltitation but when you hear his life story you realize that his sick violent drunken father did so much damage they couldnt undo it and eventually he killed he had been set up to do so by his fathers actions..
Two years later his Dad killed his second wife
I had a drunken Step father who used to beat up on me and my mother when he lost money he was an unofficial bookie, he did
horrific damage mentally but thankfully I got my head sorted are you going to brand me because of what happened to me in Childhood .
Or Big Lou who suffers the same as I PTSD.
We made a choice and that was to be good if I did a score sheet on what makes a person a phsycopathic I'm approx ten points shy of being one my point is we all make choices both good and bad you are branding people who have been deemed fit to be released.
I talk to you and help you , I'm trained to kill so I ask you what makes me any different to a person who does kill.
Is it the point that though I have that skill in how to kill I choose not to use it or is it ok to kill other people in the name of my country if I then do it makes me a killer , the only difference they slap a medal on your chest and say well done .
Double standards or what ?

Dave

 

[max384]

It has been proven that when giving a prisoner a good cause like the talapia or the dog training sceme in the US , you say its not a US UK thing there are murderers who get a full life scentence, they have been proven to so far beyond reabiltitation they will die in prison.

The problem is that just because someone gets life in prison and the next guy or girl gets twenty years, it doesn't mean one is beyond rehab and one is not. It is due to many factors, including nature of the crime, the judge, politics, how good a lawyer is, etc.

Yes it does happen that some kill again sadly thats can abnd does happen but the majority go on to live a good life.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4986

Maybe the UK has completely different stats, but here in the US, that is simply not true. Over 3/4 of released prisoners are arrested within five years of being released. If those stats were a full order of magnitude lower, I still wouldn't be willing to roll the dice and give them the benefit of the doubt, let alone over 75%.

I have a friend who killed his best friend who is beyond rehabiltitation but when you hear his life story you realize that his sick violent drunken father did so much damage they couldnt undo it and eventually he killed he had been set up to do so by his fathers actions..
Two years later his Dad killed his second wife
I had a drunken Step father who used to beat up on me and my mother when he lost money he was an unofficial bookie, he did
horrific damage mentally but thankfully I got my head sorted are you going to brand me because of what happened to me in Childhood .
Or Big Lou who suffers the same as I PTSD.

Why would I brand you based upon something someone did to you? Why would you even insinuate that I would do that? That's quite unfair.

We made a choice and that was to be good if I did a score sheet on what makes a person a phsycopathic I'm approx ten points shy of being one my point is we all make choices both good and bad you are branding people who have been deemed fit to be released.
I talk to you and help you , I'm trained to kill so I ask you what makes me any different to a person who does kill.
Is it the point that though I have that skill in how to kill I choose not to use it or is it ok to kill other people in the name of my country if I then do it makes me a killer , the only difference they slap a medal on your chest and say well done .
Double standards or what ?

Dave

I'm in the military too. I've done three overseas deployments, including both Iraq and Afghanistan. You can't be serious with asking what is the difference between those of us who were trained to kill and those who have killed in cold blood. You can't be serious. I'm not going to waste my time taking that bait.

As far as killing in war goes, that is far different than killing in cold blood. It is about INTENT. It is not a double standard. Look at "recidivism" rates of vets vs. felons. You'll see they don't even compare.

 

[MitchM]

The article that you started with Dave doesn't mention anything about mental illness, but given the history of that prisoner, I wouldn't doubt that there is some spectrum of mental illness involved.
Violent crimes should not be dealt with based on the violent act itself. They should be dealt with on a case by case basis.
This is not a black and white issue.

I'm glad that they are finding a method of treatment that is helping this particular prisoner.

 

[Dave 54]

The article that you started with Dave doesn't mention anything about mental illness, but given the history of that prisoner, I wouldn't doubt that there is some spectrum of mental illness involved.
Violent crimes should not be dealt with based on the violent act itself. They should be dealt with on a case by case basis.
This is not a black and white issue.

I'm glad that they are finding a method of treatment that is helping this particular prisoner.

I agree with you whole heartedly there Mitch you are spot on when you say case by case basis , your prisons are fundametally different to ours both in the way you treat your prisoners yes we lock folks away but the in house horrific violence of gangs in your prisons is somewhat lacking in our own prisons and the empathis is on rehabilitating those we can.
There are no gangs as such as these people are broken up and moved to other prisons .


Dave

 

[MitchM]

The gang situation is not as severe here as it is in the US,
Plus the US has private for-profit prisons. Totally different approach. Not good, in my opinion.
They do what they can to keep their prisons full.

 

[max384]

The article that you started with Dave doesn't mention anything about mental illness, but given the history of that prisoner, I wouldn't doubt that there is some spectrum of mental illness involved.
Violent crimes should not be dealt with based on the violent act itself. They should be dealt with on a case by case basis.
This is not a black and white issue.

I'm glad that they are finding a method of treatment that is helping this particular prisoner.

There may be mental illness, but he is in prison, not a mental institution, so he had enough mental capacity to stand trial.

 

[MitchM]

It is estimated that approximately 20% of the prison population have serious mental illness.
Mental illness needs treatment, not imprisonment.
Our society has a long way to go to properly treat mentally ill individuals.

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/problem/consequences-of-non-treatment/2580

.

 

[Dave 54]

There may be mental illness, but he is in prison, not a mental institution, so he had enough mental capacity to stand trial.

Max there is a Royal Marine RSM currently doing at least 10 years for murdering a taliban in cold blood even though the guy was mortally wounded sadly it was caught on camera a few days earlier he'd seen a tree full of arms and legs that the taliban had decorated with dead soldiers body parts .
Ok so he is in prison does he have a mental illnesss" yes". but mental illness means a person should go to hospital not to prison.
We tried your private for profit prison system and ditched it perfaring instead to go back to our normal prisons.
There are people being executed in the US who's mental capasity was was that of young children "you did it" , now if you go hard enough on a person who has a low mental capasity and age they will admit to anything.
Sadly in the US it is seen all to often these people shouldnt be in prison and the Police should be out looking for the real killers.
Like Mitch we dont have a gang culture in our prisons it wouldnt be allowed , weve just had an English business man of Indian origin who was on death row for 10 years or more found innocent "what happened there then " was he fitted up by the law.
What about all the Afro Americans how many of those were set up eh Max? what about the shootings we are seeing of afro Americans, inocent people shot for what because they are a different colour ,
Max there are Afro Carribean English men I have had the pleasure to serve with and if asked would die for them just as you have .
Mental illness is a growing problem in UK prisons why because its the only place we can keep them since someon had the forthought of closing down all our Mental health hospitals in favour of smaller units this doesnt work so prisons have to tyake up the slack, what do you think prison does to person with mental health issues "does it makes them worse not better".
America is the land of the free yes "as long as you dont fall foul of your system"

Dave

 

[max384]

This was supposed to be a discussion about prisoners having fish, not about UK vs US. Furthermore, now you've thrown in the death penalty and race baiting. This discussion is now so far off track, and I'm not going to entertain country bashing, that I'm going to bow out.

But before I go, I'll leave this here http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/projectsresearch/race

Make sure you have your facts straight before you pull the race card and pit countries against each other.

 

[Dave 54]

So sorry Max but you not I hijacked this interesting threadYou hijacked this discusson not I all I did was report on it and all you gave out was hatered for murderers how they dont deserve this etc
Obviously we are poles apart on this so we'll beg to differ and stop here .
But I would like an appology I have not played the race card I was reporting what we have all seen on CSN and Fox news .


Dave

 

[Becky]

@max384 you took this thread off topic in an argumentative direction - please don't do this again.
@Dave 54 you can't rise to the bait then demand an apology!

Topic closed.