UPDATE on Pond cycle

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See this is what I mean by you becoming confused all these suggestions are from Koiphen , why do you need the Pond Amquel Plus or Prazi Calvin ?
Melafix isnt a treatment we rate the but Dr fosters bacteria is fine if you cant get Microbe_ lifft PL filter pad innoculant gel which we rate as being on a par witrh Dr fosters but have never used because weve not seen it in the UK and thus cant talk you through the proceedures .

Dave.
I'm getting prazi and melafix for my emergency kit if something goes wrong in the long wrong! No stores here sell locally.
Amquel plus is for just in case a huge spike does happen to occur I can use. I will try my best to avoid using it w/ water change but if I can't control it I will have it handy.

I plan to get the live nitrifiying bacteria and also the microbe lift therap it does wonders according to everyone who used it. 20 something dollars for 5,000 gallon word of product.
 
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The Aquel is to lock awat the Ammonia yes well even if you do its still there Calvin we need a spike in both it and Nitrite before your pond is cycled my friend thats how ponds cycle the problem your up against is you stocked your pond with fish when you should only have used one or two and this is a big problem I wont hide that from you our koi didnt go into the pond from indoors until we had the pond cycled and even with two fish it was stressful enough now we have a pondfull to be stressed about

Dave
 
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The Aquel is to lock awat the Ammonia yes well even if you do its still there Calvin we need a spike in both it and Nitrite before your pond is cycled my friend thats how ponds cycle the problem your up against is you stocked your pond with fish when you should only have used one or two and this is a big problem I wont hide that from you our koi didnt go into the pond from indoors until we had the pond cycled and even with two fish it was stressful enough now we have a pondfull to be stressed about

Dave
I understand. The moment I receive the live bacteria it will be put it immediately. I don't believe the first day with 2 koi was doing anything. Research said for the size of my pond it needed to be a handful. But not my handful amount. I'm going to shred it abit. Seperate the large and small let the little ones live off a air bubbles for a few days while we complete this. I do have a a lot more babies so I need to take those out to reduce the craziness going on.
 
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It's weird though, when I had 4-5 koi my water was crystal clear. For a good 4-5 days. Moment I transfer everytbing over it's so dark and I can only see the kohaku koi . Could this be a algae bloom? Or just bacteria forming
 
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And there is absolutely no reason to post this response. It has nothing to do with the OP's situation.

Yes there was. It needed saying, and since the post I replied to was directed at the OP, it has plenty to do with his or her situation.
 
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No Max I dont think I'm being egotistic at all thats the last thing you can accuse me off it was patently explained to Calvin to not put his koi into the pond util it had cycled but he did .
he was told not to buy this supposed petshops own bacteria and go for Microbe_lift PL instead now hes trying to find a way to get out of jail free by asking questions of other sites and thus he's stressing himself out even more by doing so on another site
One that says its ok to loose his koi because thats how things go when you cycle ponds which is a total and utter nonsense.
Max at 57 years of age I'm far from childish or egotistic and will if I think the little guy is getting it step in and speakup for them, personally those who know me know I'm one of the most laid back helpful people there is especially when it comes to helping others.
As I repetedly say to people Max I'm not an expert nor profess to be my advice is double checked before it is given out, nor am I a Google head copying stuff often wrong from the internet .
What I know comes from 27 years and I choose to help because I have a love of all things fish.
Fish which gave me back a life after a number of bad things happened to me in childhood and after I was disable by a Motorcycle accident which cost me my lifelong carreer at sea and my life took a downward spiral.
As such I owe it to them to help educate others that koi and goldfish are for life, that life can be upto and above 80 years for koi 40+ years for goldfish, you know a parrot is very long lived but how many people know the life expectancy of fish because of this they are seen as a throw-away comodity which they are not
It appears to be the only hobby where its ok for your fish to die which it is not Max,
Everyone educates themselves on other hobbies not many do with fish why is that , they have as much right to a full stress free liveas well dont they ? .
So please Max dont accuse me of something I'm not .:)

Dave

I wasn't questioning your experience or knowledge Dave. I respect your opinions and advice highly. You are FAR more knowledgeable on this than I am. However, I was questioning your delivery system. The quickest way to make someone disregard your advice, especially on the internet, is to present it in such a manner that puts them on the defense (and I do realize that my post put you on the defense, so I probably should have worded it differently). You certainly gave him good advice, but he undoubtedly also got advice from his local petshop as all as some conflicting advice from another forum. I don't think it's fair to get pissed that he took someone else's advice over yours. To him, you're just a random internet person. When I am seeking advice, I often ask the same question on multiple forums. There is ALWAYS conflicting advice, so at some point I have to disregard somebody's advice. As far as ponds and koi are concerned, I only ask here, since I post and read enough here to be able to trust the advice from most members here. Even still, the advice here is often conflicting.

My point in calling your post childish and egotistic was that you were getting pissed because out of all the advice he received, he didn't choose to heed yours. In hindsight, I wouldn't have used those words, as they're clearly argumentative. So for that, I apologize. However, the point of my post still stands.
 
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I wasn't questioning your experience or knowledge Dave. I respect your opinions and advice highly. You are FAR more knowledgeable on this than I am. However, I was questioning your delivery system. The quickest way to make someone disregard your advice, especially on the internet, is to present it in such a manner that puts them on the defense (and I do realize that my post put you on the defense, so I probably should have worded it differently). You certainly gave him good advice, but he undoubtedly also got advice from his local petshop as all as some conflicting advice from another forum. I don't think it's fair to get pissed that he took someone else's advice over yours. To him, you're just a random internet person. When I am seeking advice, I often ask the same question on multiple forums. There is ALWAYS conflicting advice, so at some point I have to disregard somebody's advice. As far as ponds and koi are concerned, I only ask here, since I post and read enough here to be able to trust the advice from most members here. Even still, the advice here is often conflicting.
My point in calling your post childish and egotistic was that you were getting pissed because out of all the advice he received, he didn't choose to heed yours. In hindsight, I wouldn't have used those words, as they're clearly argumentative. So for that, I apologize. However, the point of my post still stands.
I ran a forum for over three years Max and I know I may be a random person to him as you are to me etc but we are here for one thing our love of fish am I correct ?
We tended to work one on one the person who answred the thread was the lead person who would help that person through his/her problem but from the start Calvin disregareded any advice given to him by people, in fact I had told him to wait before the koi went into his pond in both this thread and a prior one why he disregarded that advice only he knows for sure but it was most probably because it didnt suit him to wait until the pond was cycled before his koi went in which then gives the lead person double the problem .
His post this moring proves my point hes getting advice from two sides of the coin as I didnt tell him to get any of these and with the Melfix (which we dont rate as an effective treatment).and Prazi which he hasnt got a clue how to use non of us told hiim to buy it did we ?
Dr Fosters Nitrifying bacteria though sound advice we dont get in the UK nor PondAmquel Plus , we use Ammo Lock in the UK Microbe_lift has only reached our shores in the last couple of years and is what we always use

Update.
Just ordered
Pond Amquel Plus
Drs. foster and smith live nitrifying bacteria
While at it I purchased praziquantel and melafix.
W/ next day shipping.

Dave I am purchasing the microbe later in a few days, I don't want to overdose all these at the same time. It seems really good too! But from what I read it said it's not made for bacteria but does contain it. I am purchasing it later to add into my pond! Thanks again guys!

But point taken Max but perhaps the same for you as well :happy:

Dave
 
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I ran a forum for over three years Max and I know I may be a random person to him as you are to me etc but we are here for one thing our love of fish am I correct ?
We tended to work one on one the person who answred the thread was the lead person who would help that person through his/her problem but from the start Calvin disregareded any advice given to him by people, in fact I had told him to wait before the koi went into his pond in both this thread and a prior one why he disregarded that advice only he knows for sure but it was most probably because it didnt suit him to wait until the pond was cycled before his koi went in which then gives the lead person double the problem .
His post this moring proves my point hes getting advice from two sides of the coin as I didnt tell him to get any of these and with the Melfix (which we dont rate as an effective treatment).and Prazi which he hasnt got a clue how to use non of us told hiim to buy it did we ?
Dr Fosters Nitrifying bacteria though sound advice we dont get in the UK nor PondAmquel Plus , we use Ammo Lock in the UK Microbe_lift has only reached our shores in the last couple of years and is what we always use



But point taken Max but perhaps the same for you as well :happy:

Dave

You don't understand me Dave...
The medication that I purchased were not given by advice from anyone here or there.. It's simply going to be the first in my first aid kid for my koi. Hence I run into a fluke problem I have it in hand then to order it again and risk my koi to die.

Now on the other hand, you did tell me to wait. But a raccoon stopped by. It was fully covered but knocked over. I can't help it and sit and wait weeks till it's ready and lose more fish. You gave me amazing advice and help but please get the story correct atleast.
 
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@Calvin - I didn't see if you answered this, but what color is your water? Most common will be either green or a dark tea color. Have you added any live plants? Logs? Rocks?

I think you mentioned that you ran one of the filters on the old pond... How long did it run before you moved it to the new pond? Did you take any of the filter media from the old pond and put it in the new filters? If you did any of this, you have already transferred more bacteria to your pond than you will receive in any bottles you buy from a store. At that point there's no need to add anything else to the pond. Oh, and as mentioned, that brown film that the store scraped from their pond liner is not bacteria... its nothing more than common algae. There *may* be a very minute amount of bacteria growing with the algae, but essentially what the store did was just give you a bag of dirt, and it will do you just as much good as if you had thrown in a handful of dirt from your yard.

Now for a little knowledge in what is happening... Every new body of water has to establish a cycle, and this cycle usually won't hurt the fish unless something disrupts it. First you start with ammonia from the fish waste, and you will see that start to appear on your daily tests. This causes bacteria to grow which converts the ammonia to nitrites. The nitrites then grow new bacteria which converts nitrites into nitrates. All of these bacteria are what you want in your pond, but even if you never add any, they will still show up. They exist on leaves and birds and everything else that comes in contact with your pond, so don't worry so much about adding every bottle of bacteria you can find, it really won't help. Once you have all the different types of bacteria active, the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all balance each other out... they are still there, but they all work together to clean your water.

Now, you asked before about why you would only do a 10% water change, and not change out a lot more if your ammonia is really high. Well first off, what do you consider "high"? I wouldn't even think about it unless your levels get up above 2.0 or 3.0. If you're still at 0.25, its pretty normal. However let's imagine you decided to do a 50% water change because you thought your ammonia was too high. When you replace 50% of the water, you have taken away half of the food source (the ammonia) from the new bacteria you are trying to grow, so suddenly a lot of that bacteria dies. And dead bacteria means higher ammonia, so by doing too large a water change, you have made your problem even worse! The best course of action is to keep monitoring your levels, but do not change anything until the pond has fully cycled. That also means quit adding new fish! You say all these people are suddenly offering to give you fish... if they have the fish now, there is now reason why they can't wait a week or two before giving them to you. Your pond is in a delicate stage right now, and every time you add more fish increases the chances that you are going to kill ALL of them. You've already pushed your luck, and if you don't screw up any more you might pull through. Yes, adding just one more fish right now could make the difference, and you may wake up tomorrow with all of your fish dead.

I originally asked about the water color, because that tells you a lot too. The dark tea color usually comes from logs or dead plants, and won't hurt the fish. If you water is green (and it will be soon enough), don't make the mistake of trying to clean up up by dumping even more chemicals in the water. In the early stages of the water cycle, algae is going to suddenly grow like crazy (algae bloom). Your water is going to be bright green, and you won't be able to see your fish. This stage is going to last for a long time, probably a month or two. This is also part of the natural cycle! The algae is feeding on the sudden surplus of nitrates in the water that the bacteria are creating, and when you see the bright green it means that your pond is doing good and may be past the danger zone to your fish. You should see this within the first couple weeks of your pond running. Have patience, the algae will eventually find a balance, and suddenly one day your water will be crystal clear. This also happens to most people every Spring because the bacteria and algae start growing as the water warms up. Just have patience, because once your pond clears up from the algae bloom, it means the water has reached a good balance and your fish are safe. NOW is the time when it is safe to start adding a few more fish. I would never add more than 3-4 fish per week, even after your pond is balanced. Give the bacteria time to adjust to the additional fish. And finally, if your water is any other color than green or tea, you probably have contaminants... Dirt, dirty sand or rocks, maybe something used to pot some plants. There's not much you can do about this except give it a couple weeks for the dirt to settle.
 
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@Calvin -Now, you asked before about why you would only do a 10% water change, and not change out a lot more if your ammonia is really high. Well first off, what do you consider "high"? I wouldn't even think about it unless your levels get up above 2.0 or 3.0. If you're still at 0.25, its pretty normal. However let's imagine you decided to do a 50% water change because you thought your ammonia was too high. When you replace 50% of the water, you have taken away half of the food source (the ammonia) from the new bacteria you are trying to grow, so suddenly a lot of that bacteria dies. And dead bacteria means higher ammonia, so by doing too large a water change, you have made your problem even worse! .

Im sorry but that just isn't true. If the ammonia level is 3 PPM that means the bacteria have not been able to consume 3 ppm of the ammonia that is being produced. If you do a 50% change, there will still be 1.5 ppm that they were not able to consume. Not a problem. Let me put it another way. If you had a pizza for dinner, left 3 uneaten on your plate, and I took away 1.5 pieces, there would still be 1.5 pieces of pizza on your plate that you did not eat. Did you starve? Nope, there was still extra food.
 
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Looks like another bottled bacteria thread. :LOL: With all those bottles of "bacteria" ;) Calvin has dumped in his pond you'd think it would be right as rain by now.
2591d94.jpg
 

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@Calvin - I didn't see if you answered this, but what color is your water? Most common will be either green or a dark tea color. Have you added any live plants? Logs? Rocks?

I think you mentioned that you ran one of the filters on the old pond... How long did it run before you moved it to the new pond? Did you take any of the filter media from the old pond and put it in the new filters? If you did any of this, you have already transferred more bacteria to your pond than you will receive in any bottles you buy from a store. At that point there's no need to add anything else to the pond. Oh, and as mentioned, that brown film that the store scraped from their pond liner is not bacteria... its nothing more than common algae. There *may* be a very minute amount of bacteria growing with the algae, but essentially what the store did was just give you a bag of dirt, and it will do you just as much good as if you had thrown in a handful of dirt from your yard.

Now for a little knowledge in what is happening... Every new body of water has to establish a cycle, and this cycle usually won't hurt the fish unless something disrupts it. First you start with ammonia from the fish waste, and you will see that start to appear on your daily tests. This causes bacteria to grow which converts the ammonia to nitrites. The nitrites then grow new bacteria which converts nitrites into nitrates. All of these bacteria are what you want in your pond, but even if you never add any, they will still show up. They exist on leaves and birds and everything else that comes in contact with your pond, so don't worry so much about adding every bottle of bacteria you can find, it really won't help. Once you have all the different types of bacteria active, the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all balance each other out... they are still there, but they all work together to clean your water.

Now, you asked before about why you would only do a 10% water change, and not change out a lot more if your ammonia is really high. Well first off, what do you consider "high"? I wouldn't even think about it unless your levels get up above 2.0 or 3.0. If you're still at 0.25, its pretty normal. However let's imagine you decided to do a 50% water change because you thought your ammonia was too high. When you replace 50% of the water, you have taken away half of the food source (the ammonia) from the new bacteria you are trying to grow, so suddenly a lot of that bacteria dies. And dead bacteria means higher ammonia, so by doing too large a water change, you have made your problem even worse! The best course of action is to keep monitoring your levels, but do not change anything until the pond has fully cycled. That also means quit adding new fish! You say all these people are suddenly offering to give you fish... if they have the fish now, there is now reason why they can't wait a week or two before giving them to you. Your pond is in a delicate stage right now, and every time you add more fish increases the chances that you are going to kill ALL of them. You've already pushed your luck, and if you don't screw up any more you might pull through. Yes, adding just one more fish right now could make the difference, and you may wake up tomorrow with all of your fish dead.

I originally asked about the water color, because that tells you a lot too. The dark tea color usually comes from logs or dead plants, and won't hurt the fish. If you water is green (and it will be soon enough), don't make the mistake of trying to clean up up by dumping even more chemicals in the water. In the early stages of the water cycle, algae is going to suddenly grow like crazy (algae bloom). Your water is going to be bright green, and you won't be able to see your fish. This stage is going to last for a long time, probably a month or two. This is also part of the natural cycle! The algae is feeding on the sudden surplus of nitrates in the water that the bacteria are creating, and when you see the bright green it means that your pond is doing good and may be past the danger zone to your fish. You should see this within the first couple weeks of your pond running. Have patience, the algae will eventually find a balance, and suddenly one day your water will be crystal clear. This also happens to most people every Spring because the bacteria and algae start growing as the water warms up. Just have patience, because once your pond clears up from the algae bloom, it means the water has reached a good balance and your fish are safe. NOW is the time when it is safe to start adding a few more fish. I would never add more than 3-4 fish per week, even after your pond is balanced. Give the bacteria time to adjust to the additional fish. And finally, if your water is any other color than green or tea, you probably have contaminants... Dirt, dirty sand or rocks, maybe something used to pot some plants. There's not much you can do about this except give it a couple weeks for the dirt to settle.
Well stated!
 
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And there is absolutely no reason to post this response. It has nothing to do with the OP's situation.
Its hard to read people chewing other people out. peeps are getting to emotionally involved
And there is absolutely no reason to post this response. It has nothing to do with the OP's situation.
And there is absolutely no reason to post this response. It has nothing to do with the OP's situation.
I thought Dave's response was short with temper also. In fact I don't even ask some questions because I don't want to get chew on, I just search for hours on the topic. Calvin has ever right to search several forms and cross reference information without getting chewed on. From what I am gathering some forums can be intolerable to some and that is what I am hearing is different about this forum, correct?
I don't know what Calvins true age is but his profile says 19 (Yes this could be false as I am 87 on my profile) and if he lives in America he has rights to education from any area he wants.
At least Calvin is searching info out and not just winging it, well maybe he is. Many do, I remember owning my first indoor tank YEARS ago and yeah, some fish died.
Maybe it's Dave's great love for the fish that made him sound harsh.
 

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