Relined due to leak & now ammonia is spiking & fish look affected by it

[Mattie]

Heading out for Phosphate test kit. Two last questions: there is a pond store nearby (about 25 min). If I buy another water lily to drop into the pond with all its existing bacteria, would that help? Likewise, I have a neighbor with a small fairly pea green goldfish and turtle pond. She offered me a couple of water hyacinths. If I asked for a gallon of water as well might that help? Her water clearly has a lot of algae and I suspect bacteria because despite lack of filtration her fish have been doing ok for a long time. Maybe the bacteria would survive the 5 minute walk? Or would the water conditions in my pond kill off whatever I bring in from her pond?

 

[Mattie]

There is all new water in the pond since the relining. Pond expert wouldn't let me put the old water back in. So I don't know if the baking soda is still having an effect. I don't know why the PH isn't budging. Confused me too.

 

[MitchM]

If you're talking about a hardy water lily, your water temperature of 60f is too cool for it to grow any amount.
However, if it comes from an established pond, there will be a significant amount of beneficia bacteria and an established biofilm. Adding some green water and hyacinths will help your your situation as well.

 

[Mattie]

OK, will do. Thanks.

 

[Lisak1]

This is an awesome thread to follow. Thanks to @MitchM and @Meyer Jordan for not only suggesting WHAT to do, buy WHY to do it. Always better to learn than to just blindly follow.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

As usual. I am late to the party.
Mattie, while everything that has been mentioned so far in this thread is important. I would not worry about any of the other water quality parameters until your pond has cycled. Your pH is fine, your KH is fine, your phosphorus levels are fine....for now. Attempting to alter or change any parameter other than the Ammonia and upcoming Nitrite will only create more instability in your pond and stress in your fish. These other parameters should stabilize on their own and need no human interference. It is, however, advisable to monitor them for the time being.

 

[Mattie]

Meyer, Is there anything that I should prepare for in in terms of the coming nitrite spike (at least I hope it's coming). Or is that something you wait out too as it cycles? I can't always get supplies last minute, so I need to plan ahead.

Also, local pond supplier just gave me a bunch of free water hyacinths (because it is the end of the season) with lots of roots and I purchased a hardy lily at half off to hopefully introduce some good bacteria gently. He said something I'd like to check here: using ammonia binder will not leave usable ammonia in the water for the cycle to start so I should stop using the Pond Prime unless the ammonia goes higher. I've seen other sources online say that the bound ammonia can still be used by the filter bacteria. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Meyer, Is there anything that I should prepare for in in terms of the coming nitrite spike (at least I hope it's coming). Or is that something you wait out too as it cycles? I can't always get supplies last minute, so I need to plan ahead.

Also, local pond supplier just gave me a bunch of free water hyacinths (because it is the end of the season) with lots of roots and I purchased a hardy lily at half off to hopefully introduce some good bacteria gently. He said something I'd like to check here: using ammonia binder will not leave usable ammonia in the water for the cycle to start so I should stop using the Pond Prime unless the ammonia goes higher. I've seen other sources online say that the bound ammonia can still be used by the filter bacteria. Does anyone know for sure?

At this point I would cease the use of the Prime. It does appear that the Ammonia level has topped out at 1.0 mg/L (Most test kits will still detect Ammonia even though the free Ammonia has been neutralized) I would expect the Ammonia level to start dropping in the next couple of days. At that time, Nitrite levels will start to rise. There are actions that can be taken if Nitrite gets too high, but lets wait and see before adding anything else to the pond.
The Hyacinths will certainly help, moreso than the Water Lily.
My thinking is in agreement with your local pond supplier. Bound Ammonia will be more difficult for Ammonia oxidizing bacteria to use if at all.

 

[MitchM]

Prime is only effective for 24 - 48 hours.

Using Prime on a new pond with fish is a catch22 - The bacteria need the ammonia, but the ammonia can harm the fish.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Prime is only effective for 24 - 48 hours.

Using Prime on a new pond with fish is a catch22 - The bacteria need the ammonia, but the ammonia can harm the fish.

Very true.
Based on the Ammonia test results, at the current temperature and pH, the free Ammonia level (0.015) is below the danger point (0.020).
I suspect that the complete change in all parameters and aspects of the fish's environment has contributed to and magnified the stress experienced by the fish. Only time will remedy that.

 

[Mattie]

Hi everyone,

Here are the evening readings and update for Day 4 (since the relining). Ammonia appears to have decreased to .5 but there is no measurable nitrite or nitrate to indicate what happened to the ammonia, so I wonder if this is accurate. I measured twice to be sure I did the test right. Came up .5 both times.

Fish behavior:
One of my 3 fish (my biggest and most athletic female) is still flashing fairly frequently but seems more active and alert otherwise than the sluggishness she had before. The other two seem to be acting more normal. All three seem alert, they are swimming, pecking the hyacinth looking for food, and react to me when I come. I sat with them for a while and they even did a little begging for food like they normally would (I did not give in and feed them).

6 p.m. readings with API drop kit:
Temp 58 F
ph 7.8
ammonia .5 ppm (measured this twice)
nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 0 ppm
Kh ~50 (3 drops)

6 p.m. readings with API test strip:
ph 7
Kh ~40
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Actions:
Added 1/8 cup Pond Prime in the morning. Added a bunch of hyacinth and a lily midday. Waited. Watched. Googled. Waited. Googled. Watched. Hoped. Posted.

Notes:
It's going to get very cold tonight, so I doubt I'll get any bacteria growth tonight, but then it warms up the next few days. So maybe there will be improvement.

Questions:
Should I clean my filter pads tomorrow (in pond water of course)? Normally I would have done this a couple of days ago, but I've been worried about rinsing off any new delicate bacterial growth. They have a little muck on them, but seem like they could go longer. Water level is only slightly lower in the pump chamber and being much lower is usually a sign to rinse the pads. Should I hold off as long as possible or is it bad to wait?

Gratitude:
You all have no idea how helpful it is to have folks out there offering advice and support. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Great news!! The fish are adapting.
You may begin seeing the Nitrite level rising tomorrow. I have a feeling that it is not going to present a major problem.
Go ahead a give your filter pads a light cleaning if you feel that they need it. Be sure to use pond water.
It will take some time for the pond's water temperature to drop to the ambient atmospheric temperature, so the nitrifying bacteria and archaea are still very much active.

 

[MitchM]

Great update, Mattie.
The good thing about cooler water (when it comes) is that it contains more dissolved oxygen.

 

[Mattie]

Thanks everyone. Here's the Day 5 morning update and one question about the hyacinths. Found a thread on koi-bito where folks said they are bad for the pond because the koi tear up the roots and it clogs the plumbing. They also warned about contamination. One post said: "I remember a few years back (well I suppose it was decades) when one of our club members stopped and picked up some water hyacinths growing in a canal during a visit to california. He dropped them in his pond and came down with the worse case of anchor worm one could ever imagine....all this remembrance to warn, that if you do decide to get them and keep them out of the main pond so that the koi don't tear them apart and you still have them absorbing ammonia...be sure that no matter where you get them; that they are PP dipped to destroy anything on them." I just dropped mine right in. They came out of a small pond they maintain without fish. The lily came out of a pond they maintain with goldfish. The pond guy at my garden center did not mention dipping them. In fact, I was hoping to get bacteria with them. Advice?

8 a.m. readings with API drop kit:
Temp 58 F
Same fish is still flashing but maybe? a little less frequently
ph 7.6 (a 0.2 decrease vs. evening)
ammonia .5 ppm (unchanged)
nitrite 0 ppm (unchanged)
nitrate 0 ppm (unchanged)
Kh was ~50 last evening; will check again tonight
Phosphorous (could not find a test yesterday; will try again or order online)

 

[Lisak1]

Good morning - I won't chime in on your test numbers, as there are others who are way smarter than me about that stuff! But I will tell share some plant wisdom from my own experience.

Will your koi tear up your floaters? Maybe. Will it hurt anything? No more than the rest of the organic material that falls into your pond naturally. Would I put plants into my pond from a wild source without QT? Never. Anyone who does that is gambling big time. But from a pond store? All the time.

Remember when you are reading "pond" websites that there are several kinds of ponds - there's the dedicated koi pond that is built to showcase ponds. Basically a swimming pool for koi. Lots of heavy duty filtration in place and generally some high priced fish as well. Then there's the garden pond. Filtration, yes. But generally it's a bio-filter or vegetable filter (often referred to as a bog here and other places). Garden ponds will have fish (goldfish, koi or a mix of both) but the plants are as important to the garden pond as the fish. Keeping these two types of ponds can be as different as night and day. Advice you hear on koi specific forums MAY or MAY NOT apply to a garden pond.

I'm watching this thread and anxious to hear that your fish have recovered and will go on to live a long and happy life!