Dying young koi... need help. flukes?

[WaterGardener]

You need to use Prime every 48 hours until your pond finishes establishing the nitrogen cycle. Please read up on that and it will help you understand the process.

That can take several weeks. Once that cycle has been established, all the beneficial bacteria you need for processing the ammonia to nitrite and then to the less toxic nitrate will be present in your system. If you have adequate filtration your ammonia and nitrite will be at zero where it belongs and you won't need Prime, except for dechlorinating the water.

Don't be talked into trying any short cuts or bacteria in a bottle products. Those are not the same bacteria that you need and they won't help, no matter what the pet store folks say.

You just have to give this time and use Prime to protect your fish from the toxins. After the cycle is established, you will only.need whatever product you choose as a decorinator.

And honestly, with your water at those levels, I wouldn't be too concerned about keeping the water changes small. I would do change as much water as possible to get the fish into better water. To me, this is an emergency situation and needs drastic measures.

I have done 100% water changes daily for weeks with no bad effects to the fish. They were better off with completely new water than swimming in water that was poisoning them.

 

[Formypet]

update: I have taken drastic action. not sure it's the right thing to do. I tested the tap water and it reads no ammonia. I then put the fish in tank with a pump. they seemed ok. I 100% have changed the water. i have now put new water in the pond with dechlorinator. the pond at moment now reads 0 ammonia. I am now going to buy the ammonia binder has advised which will come in a few days. not feeding the fish or should I feed once a day at moment until binder comes?. I am going to test the water daily and change the water 50% each day. I also have this anti biotic that I use for fishing, is it ok to use on the burns for the koi?

did I do the right thing? i cant let them swim in toxic water that's harming them.

 

[WaterGardener]

I think you did the right thing. But since you don't have enough beneficial bacteria yet, the ammonia will quickly build back. So doing large water changes is a good idea in my opinion.

Right now you can do that daily for the sake of the fish, but once you have Prime, I would do them every other day. The fish will be protected with Prime and the bacteria needs ammonia to feed on and grow. So you don't want to eliminate it all at this point. It will still be there and can feed the bacteria, but it won't be available to the fish.

This is the difficult part of cycling when fish are present. You have to have ammonia for the bacteria, but it is dangerous for the fish. So binding the ammonia is really the only reasonable option.

I think you don't need the antibiotics. The fish will heal on their own in good water. Also the antibiotics can kill the beneficial bacteria you are trying to get established.

Never use antibiotics in the pond. If you need to treat with antibiotics, put the fish in a hospital tank and treat them there.

I just took a closer look at the antibiotic you have. As a topical treatment, it should be fine. Just don't pour it into the pond.

 

[Formypet]

I think you did the right thing. But since you don't have enough beneficial bacteria yet, the ammonia will quickly build back. So doing large water changes is a good idea in my opinion.

Right now you can do that daily for the sake of the fish, but once you have Prime, I would do them every other day. The fish will be protected with Prime and the bacteria needs ammonia to feed on and grow. So you don't want to eliminate it all at this point. It will still be there and can feed the bacteria, but it won't be available to the fish.

This is the difficult part of cycling when fish are present. You have to have ammonia for the bacteria, but it is dangerous for the fish. So binding the ammonia is really the only reasonable option.

I think you don't need the antibiotics. The fish will heal on their own in good water. Also the antibiotics can kill the beneficial bacteria you are trying to get established.

Never use antibiotics in the pond. If you need to treat with antibiotics, put the fish in a hospital tank and treat them there.

I just took a closer look at the antibiotic you have. As a topical treatment, it should be fine. Just don't pour it into the pond.

thank you for your help. I listened to what you said and took the drastic action. what should I do about the feeding? should I stop feeding until the binder comes or feed once a day? I am going to do 100% changes of water daily until binder comes. it makes sense what you said, so thanks and hopefully I can rescue the fish. it does look like though it has a bacterial infection or a disease.

 

[WaterGardener]

I would stop feeding. The fish will be fine.

I think you can use the medication that you have if you just use it on the fish and not the entire pond. The problem may be that by now the infection could be internal and topical antibiotics probably won't help with that.

I would think that a 50% water change would be enough. Just watch the water parameters and if things get out of control, you can do more.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and I hope the fish will recover soon.

 

[Formypet]

I have used the medication on just the fish. it puts a protective waterproof seal on the wound. like you said it might be too late, but no harm in trying everything I can. I'll probably do near 100% changes of the pond water daily until the binder arrives.

it's a shame what has happened, it's a learning situation, I just dont like seeing any animals in a bad situation, especially one that is cared for by myself. thank you for all your help. its greatly appreciated.

 

[Mmathis]

Not sure you need to do 100% water changes. You need that water as @WaterGardener said, so the ammonia present can help feed the bacteria.

 

[Formypet]

Not sure you need to do 100% water changes. You need that water as @WaterGardener said, so the ammonia present can help feed the bacteria.

so what percentage would you say as water change?

 

[Mmathis]

so what percentage would you say as water change?

Good question and I am no expert in this area, but if it was me…..no more than 50% per day?? Let’s see if there will be more input on this.

Let me rethink this……

I once QT’d several new fancy-type goldfish in a bath tub inside. I fixed up a drip system as a water exchange. Don’t ask me how I did it — too long ago — I think I calculated it for 25% per day. It worked very well to keep the water balanced, HOWEVER…..I was only trying to keep the water pristine for a several-weeks long quarantine period, and maintaining beneficial bacteria was not a goal.

So, maybe, for now, your goal should JUST be making the water healthy, so the fish can get better……then work on the cycling later? Only worry about one goal at a time.

 

[WaterGardener]

I would do 50% for now and keep an eye on the water, testing frequently. If it gets higher than you are comfortable with, do another water change.

Once you start using Prime, do a smaller, like 25% to 30% water change every other day and dose with Prime each time.

Your tests will show all the ammonia and nitrite present, bound and unbound, so don't let that throw you. You will see ammonia and nitrite with the tests, but it will not affect the fish as long as you use Prime every 48 hours.

 

[Formypet]

i think I've found what the markings are by looking on the internet. the wounds look like ulcers. the treatment I gave does say it's for ulcers. I'm hoping for the best.

what im going to do I think is try and maintain cleaner water. hopefullty let the bacterial infection do its thing in the mean time, and treat the water with prime every two days. see what happens.

 

[poconojoe]

you're very right. I was going to get goldfish, the dealer used to do them, but no longer does. the koi looked so nice. it was hypnotising good. I do want to learn a lot about koi. been watching videos etc. beautiful fish.

Get shubunkin. They are on the goldfish family and are beautiful fish. Lots of colors and long flowing fins.

 

[Formypet]

I think you did the right thing. But since you don't have enough beneficial bacteria yet, the ammonia will quickly build back. So doing large water changes is a good idea in my opinion.

Right now you can do that daily for the sake of the fish, but once you have Prime, I would do them every other day. The fish will be protected with Prime and the bacteria needs ammonia to feed on and grow. So you don't want to eliminate it all at this point. It will still be there and can feed the bacteria, but it won't be available to the fish.

This is the difficult part of cycling when fish are present. You have to have ammonia for the bacteria, but it is dangerous for the fish. So binding the ammonia is really the only reasonable option.

I think you don't need the antibiotics. The fish will heal on their own in good water. Also the antibiotics can kill the beneficial bacteria you are trying to get established.

Never use antibiotics in the pond. If you need to treat with antibiotics, put the fish in a hospital tank and treat them there.

I just took a closer look at the antibiotic you have. As a topical treatment, it should be fine. Just don't pour it into the pond.

is this the prime you're talking about? they got this version or the pond version, but the pond version is harder to get. they both detoxify ammonnia. https://www.swelluk.com/seachem-prime#prime-4ltrs

 

[WaterGardener]

Yes, that's it. They also make the same thing in a powdered form. That's called Safe.

Safe used to be less expensive in the larger quantities than Prime. I don't know if that is still the case since I haven't looked at that for a while.

 

[Formypet]

Yes, that's it. They also make the same thing in a powdered form. That's called Safe.

Safe used to be less expensive in the larger quantities than Prime. I don't know if that is still the case since I haven't looked at that for a while.

what confused me is that there Is that prime version that I showed you in the link or they have the pond version. not sure what the difference is as they both detoxify ammonnia etc.