Family faces fines of $75,000/day for building pond.

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It could be that the county or state inspector or whomever issued the man the permit knew all about the dam as being part of the creation of the pond and erroneously signed off on it. If that be the case, then that person or agency should be liable for their error and all the costs to correct it.
Nope. If you break a state law it doesn't matter a bit what a county official signed off on, If you break a federal law it doesn't matter what a county or state official said. If you break a state law it doesn't matter what a federal official said, unless of course it's a judge.

A county official for example can give me a permit for a septic tank, I can install it and pass inspection. County is totally cool with my system. A state official can then come along and see I built too close to a river they own which breaks a state law. The county dude didn't care about the river because they don't own it and it's not their job to know or enforce state law.

People think this is all dumb government red tape but take another case. My neighbor Bob comes to me to ask permission to build a fence a little over our property line and I say OK. Bobs builds the fence. A few weeks later Bob gets a letter from Fred threatening a lawsuit unless the fence is removed. But Bob has permission from me??? I am a renter, Fred is the property owner. Am I liable because I told Bob I was OK with the fence? Heck no. Did Fred lose his right to protect his property because of what I told Bob? Heck no. The problem is Bob's. It was his responsibility to know what he was doing or not do it. Sure, Bob will whine and whine, maybe even call Fox News. But his actions were always his own.
 

morewater

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Yeah, you Yanks should be more liberal....like we Canadians.

After all, a guy that cuts the head off a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus a few years back now gets unescorted day passes from the mental institution that he was incarcerated into, a guy that shot and killed four RCMP officers now get unescorted day passes from prison.

If you're a recreational fisherman with a valid licesnse and have one fish over your possession limit, they seize your car, your boat and give you up to a $25,000 fine. If you're a Spanish trawler off the coast of Newfoundland with 1000 tons of tubot over your limit, you can keep the fish, but be fined $10,000.

Grocery stores will charge you five cents per plastic bag up here (because they're bad for the environment), but they'll sell you paper bags for composting. If they were that concerned with the environment, why wouldn't they just give you paper bags to begin with (hmmmm.......ponder).

Stupid is as stupid does........don't think about it too much or you'll go nuts.
 
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Ok, so what do you do about all this?
Move to the middle of nowhere and don't tell anyone where you live?
I already did that, now what? lol

Seriously, people really need to get more involved in local politics. It's messy and petty and childish, but that's where decisions are made.
 
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Nope. If you break a state law it doesn't matter a bit what a county official signed off on, If you break a federal law it doesn't matter what a county or state official said. If you break a state law it doesn't matter what a federal official said, unless of course it's a judge.

A county official for example can give me a permit for a septic tank, I can install it and pass inspection. County is totally cool with my system. A state official can then come along and see I built too close to a river they own which breaks a state law. The county dude didn't care about the river because they don't own it and it's not their job to know or enforce state law.

People think this is all dumb government red tape but take another case. My neighbor Bob comes to me to ask permission to build a fence a little over our property line and I say OK. Bobs builds the fence. A few weeks later Bob gets a letter from Fred threatening a lawsuit unless the fence is removed. But Bob has permission from me??? I am a renter, Fred is the property owner. Am I liable because I told Bob I was OK with the fence? Heck no. Did Fred lose his right to protect his property because of what I told Bob? Heck no. The problem is Bob's. It was his responsibility to know what he was doing or not do it. Sure, Bob will whine and whine, maybe even call Fox News. But his actions were always his own.

Hiya Waterbug,

It is difficult to argue with your statements above because this is "just the way it is" in reality. State laws trump county or local laws, and federal laws trump state and local laws and the EPA apparently trumps everything, Fedaral laws, God's laws and the laws of physics.

However, I disagree with your analogy of the "renter" giving his "neighbor" permission to erect a fence over the property line. These two people are good ole boys and they get along so very well, so there is no trouble with this plan from their viewpoint.
Except that neither one has the authority to offer such authority to the other and both of them should have realized that fact and no matter what, they both should have known that the one erecting the fence was required to obtain a legal permit to do so. Asking the neighbor if it was alright with them was great and proper, a good neighbor thing to do. But it was only the first step. Then the two should have gone to the landlord and then to the city or county.

So they go to the local or county offices to obtain the permit to erect the fence. Surveys must be conducted if the lot lines are not on record or up to date and the permit for the fence should not be issued until it is all squared away.

Now the two neighbors do not have any authority over such legal issues. They should understand that such laws exist, but they are not required to KNOW the law or the specifics. That is what they pay tax money for, to hire a person down at the courthouse or in the state capital building to do for them. When it comes to a city, county or state official who is responsible for issuing such permits, they are or should be required to KNOW the law or at least know when they need to conduct more research to ensure that they have the authority to issue a permit because they are OUR PAID REPRESENTATIVES and SERVANTS.

The unfortunate situation in the Wyoming case we are discussing is that the EPA stepped in. And they believe that a $12 lamp constructed with mercury, lead other heavy metals and toxic gases and compounds and requires a HAZMAT team or HAZMAT instruction set and PPE to dispose of (by EPA regulation) is better for the environment than a tungsten filament inside a vacuumed glass envelope with an aluminum base.

I have recently read and heard so many stories regarding the EPA attempting to poise itself to be the top of the legal food chain in the US that it disturbs me considerably. The EPA and the UN are very scary entities.

Thoughts of soylent green and "How to Serve Humans" and Orwellian type sci-fi books and movies are coming into my mind.

But, I don't get into conspiracy theories too much, since I am self protected. I will leave that to the imagination as I don't want the Secret Service folks coming around to visit me again. Nice guys, but they look wierd in their dark sunglasses, black suits and black Caddies. I do like thier Caddies! They looked really good in front of my house!

Gordy
 
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First off, it should be up to the state. If the state said ok and gave a permit that is what matters. We have been loosing state rights for a very long time. It began in the mid 1800's and has gone down hill from there. When this nation was created it was built of the United STATES of America. Separate states free to govern as they wish with the federal governments primary and only focus being protecting the borders of this nation. Not really that way anymore. The beauty of the way this republic was built is that if you didn't like the way one state governed you were free to move to another. The Constitution was written as an guideline of what government CANNOT take away from us, everything else was left to the state to decide.

As far a damning a stream (especially in the western United States) where water means life or death and is a luxury is just bad. In days past it could lead to killing someone over stealing water. The state should have said no (not the federal government or the EPA), unless in building the pond he accounted for an outlet allowing the water to continue to flow downstream past his property.
 
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State laws trump county or local laws, and federal laws trump state and local laws and the EPA apparently trumps everything, Fedaral laws, God's laws and the laws of physics.
That's certainly a very common view...unfortunately. Bad old EPA.

When I was growing up lake Eire was a sewer. Rivers near me were catching fire. I lived 5 miles from Lake Ontario and loved to fish but no one ever considered ever fishing in Lake Ontario. It was pretty much just a dead hole in the ground with water. All the pristine lakes in the Adirondack mountains had great fishing but in the matter of just a few years the fish were all gone thanks to acid rain.

Say that today and people think you're crazy. Lake Eire and Ontario are very much alive, great natural resources, great fishing. Magic? Nature just decided to clean up the environment? Hand of God?

Of course not. People got mad. We elected people to represent us and start passing laws like "hey dude, you don't own the Great Lakes, the people do. It's ours and you're not going to kill it just so you can make a few extra dollars." The EPA is part of that.

In the past 15 years, thanks to big business convincing people the EPA is evil by making up wild and crazy stories that people eat up with a spoon, the EPA has been weakened a great deal. Now water coming out of peoples' taps can be lit on fire. Right now it's just a few thousand people effected. As time passes many more people may be effected. If enough people lose the entire value of their property thanks to flammable ground water we will once gain start electing people to protect our rights.

Apparently flammable water is some kind of tipping point for people.

Then the exact same people who complained about the EPA's power will start whining about how the EPA didn't do enough to protect their properties.

However, I disagree with your analogy of the "renter" giving his "neighbor" permission to erect a fence over the property line. These two people are good ole boys and they get along so very well, so there is no trouble with this plan from their viewpoint.
Except that neither one has the authority to offer such authority to the other and both of them should have realized that fact and no matter what, they both should have known that the one erecting the fence was required to obtain a legal permit to do so. Asking the neighbor if it was alright with them was great and proper, a good neighbor thing to do. But it was only the first step. Then the two should have gone to the landlord and then to the city or county.
Since this was my story I get to make up the rules. Most cities do not require a permit for certain fences. Here in Phoenix for example a fence 3' high and less don't require any permit. You still have to follow lots of laws, but no permit is required.

And that's really my point. A permit is only permission to perform a specific task. It is not some kind of general edict that covers all aspects of a project. I can get a permit to build a shed in my back yard and pass all inspections. That only means I'm cool with the city of Phoenix. If I live in an HOA I can certainly be in big trouble with them for building the shed. I can't show the permit to the HOA and say "I have permission". That "permission" was only my imgination. I can then get the HOA's permission and have Fish & Game knock on my door telling me the shed was build within the boundaries of some endangered critter. EPA can come and say run off from the construction trashed a wetland. The telephone company and tear down my shed because I built it on their easement. On and on and on.

It is my responsibility to follow all the rules and laws that I have agreed to by living in a certain spot on the planet. If I don't like a HOA's rules I can choose not to live there or try to get the rules changed. Don't like a city's rules, I can move or change the laws. Don't like state laws, Federal, my wife's laws.

We're lucky, there are still places you can go to live in almost complete freedom. Afghanistan for example. There are places in Afghanistan you can do whatever you want. Of course everyone else there has that same freedom. They're free to chop off you head and no one is going say anything.

When people in the US whine about freedom what they always seem to mean is they should have the freedom to do whatever they like, but want everyone else controlled by laws and expect the government to protect them from everyone else. Since the beginning of human history that has never been true because it doesn't work. Never has. Though people like Idi Amin keep testing the theory. Personal responsibility is hard to avoid.

Now the two neighbors do not have any authority over such legal issues. They should understand that such laws exist, but they are not required to KNOW the law or the specifics. That is what they pay tax money for, to hire a person down at the courthouse or in the state capital building to do for them. When it comes to a city, county or state official who is responsible for issuing such permits, they are or should be required to KNOW the law or at least know when they need to conduct more research to ensure that they have the authority to issue a permit because they are OUR PAID REPRESENTATIVES and SERVANTS.
No, no and no. I'm sorry, I mean NO, NO and NO. Ignorantia juris non excusat is a corner stone of US law.

We in the US hate government. Because of that we give government officials very little actual power. The President of the US could sign an executive order giving Bob permission to build the fence on Fred's property and it wouldn't mean squat.

We pay government officials to follow laws our elected officials pass. That's it. There is absolutely no government agency in the US that has the ability to protect you from all laws. It's NOT THEIR JOB. In China maybe. Maybe in a country ruled by a dictator. But not in the US. We setup up this system specifically this way. Personal responsibility and personal freedom are the same thing. It's what America is about. It's the entire basis of our system.

The unfortunate situation in the Wyoming case we are discussing is that the EPA stepped in. And they believe that a $12 lamp constructed with mercury, lead other heavy metals and toxic gases and compounds and requires a HAZMAT team or HAZMAT instruction set and PPE to dispose of (by EPA regulation) is better for the environment than a tungsten filament inside a vacuumed glass envelope with an aluminum base.
Why does that upset you? Would you be happier if your neighbor could start a mercury scraping business with no rules? You think mercury poisoning is a something tree hugers made up? When you start losing your sight, have trouble walking, etc., you'll become a believer. What then? Should your neighbor be allowed to sprinkle some kitty litter around and say "yep, all cleaned up"? Or are you going to demand the best possible clean up knowing full well, even with all HAZMAT teams it will be impossible to remove all the mercury? That your property value will be way less and your disabilities, and your family's, will be forever.

That's the thing that makes no sense to me. People whine about the government's power right up until they're the one being harmed by some a-hole. Then they want the government to protect them and whine the government isn't doing enough. People just like to whine imo. Easier than following rules or getting rules changed.

If you're one of the top 1% of the top 1% who own most of the US and control media and public opinion I totally get why you'd be anti-government. You wouldn't want any laws because you'd have the resources to implement your own rules. But for the 99.9% of the rest of us it makes no sense. We banned together to create the government we have to protected ourselves from the 0.1%, starting with protection from the King of England. Why are we now pushing to give the country back to these people? What was the point of the fighting and dying in all these wars if we are just going to turn it all back over to the 0.1% again? Trouble is we're too fat and dumb to know any different.

I have recently read and heard so many stories regarding the EPA attempting to poise itself to be the top of the legal food chain in the US that it disturbs me considerably. The EPA and the UN are very scary entities.
Stop reading propaganda. It'll just upset you and waste your time. Read a few other sources to see propaganda for what it is.
 
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Waterbug,

Please re-read my post that you disected above. You either contradicted yourself or you did not read my meaning correctly. You have me very confused so I cannot reply to each statement in your last post (reply). I cannot argue with most of it because it was what I was stating in the first place. I cannot argue with myself.

Sorry if I misunderstood you here, but you really do have me perplexed. I apologize for touching off a nerve. It was not intentional. I just wished to debate and discuss around the kitchen table. I always love to debate like that, but I don't wish it to lead to anyone having hard feelings. You have no such feelings I hope? Sounded like you were rather angry or at least upset, maybe annoyed or frustrated. I don't want you to be upset because of my ideas and statements.

Sincerely,

Gordy
 
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Funny thing about mercury.
I have a 6 pound bottle of the stuff from a very old dentist's office.
I called the fire department because they take hazardous goods. It's too much for them. They're interested in old thermometer quantities.
I called the recycling depot. They don't deal in hazardous goods like that - paint and flammables only.
I called a commercial waste disposal company but because I don't have an account with them they won't take it. I no longer have a business so I can't open an account with them.
So here I sit with an interesting bottle of mercury.

We also have 160 acres of land here. We're not allowed to have more than 3 dogs because the barking may annoy our neighbours who are 3/4 mile away. We don't want more than 3 dogs, but I find it amusing that no matter your land size they have focused on dog barking. Why? Because the little hamlet busybodies got together and organized a bylaw.

I'm so glad our government is looking out for our best interests.

.

.
 
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Funny thing about mercury.
I have a 6 pound bottle of the stuff from a very old dentist's office.
I called the fire department because they take hazardous goods. It's too much for them. They're interested in old thermometer quantities.
I called the recycling depot. They don't deal in hazardous goods like that - paint and flammables only.
I called a commercial waste disposal company but because I don't have an account with them they won't take it. I no longer have a business so I can't open an account with them.
So here I sit with an interesting bottle of mercury.

We also have 160 acres of land here. We're not allowed to have more than 3 dogs because the barking may annoy our neighbours who are 3/4 mile away. We don't want more than 3 dogs, but I find it amusing that no matter your land size they have focused on dog barking. Why? Because the little hamlet busybodies got together and organized a bylaw.

I'm so glad our government is looking out for our best interests.

.
.
At school I dropped a large bottle of mecury in the science lab whilst putting it away , the teacher said something to me that distracted me from what I was doing and instead of it going onto the shelf to be locked away it ended up hitting the floor where it broke open :eek:
I was hero of the school (y) because they had to completely shut down the science lab it went everywhere all differing sizes of metalic blobs rolling over the floor so it could be cleaned by a specialist cleaners.
It was closed for a whole week so they could be sure they got every little bit of it up :cool:
Why not offer the mercury to your old school I'll bet they will be glad of it "just a thought Mitch" ;)
I'm surprise that the Homeland Security the :cool: CIA :cool: and the FBI:cool: hasnt decended on your home with a swat team shipping you off to Cuba by now, for offering mecury (all be it for disposal) . :LOL: (y)
Perhaps if you were to do something other with it :mad:. they would gladly take it off your hands (idea) why not ring them and say I'm uncomfortable having this in my home for the very reason if stolen what it could be used for

Dave
 
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:)
No Homeland Security here Dave, I'm in Canada.

...on second thought....they're probably still watching me, lol.

I've considered calling a government office then waiting for guys in hazmat suits show up. It would probably make a good youtube video.
If I tried to take the stuff anywhere I would probably be ticketed for transporting dangerous goods.
I would like this stuff gone because if it did spill all hell would break loose and it would render our land useless I'm sure.
I'm not in a panic, I would just like to dispose of it properly without a big deal being made of things.
Right now it's sitting quietly in it's bottle just like it has for the last 25+ years. It's just been forgotten about.
It concerns me that none of the places that I called had a suggestion as to what I should do with the stuff.

.
 
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Contact your old school see if they want it instead veryones happy then :)
God you'd have thought i'd have noticed your weather banner stating Canada :LOL: how on earth did I his it ?

Dave
 

HARO

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You must be a LOT younger than me, Dave, because I can remember MY science teacher placing small blobs of mercury in our palms so we could see what it was and how it behaved! Must have played with that rolling lump for a half-hour or more before returning it to the bottle. Maybe THAT'S why my memory isn't that great anymore? :confused:
John
 
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Contact your old school see if they want it instead veryones happy then :)
God you'd have thought i'd have noticed your weather banner stating Canada :LOL: how on earth did I his it ?

Dave


I'm pretty sure it's not that simple.
If I'm caught transporting it, I'll be fined.
If the school obtains it through an unapproved source, they'll be in trouble.

Maybe I'll just will it to my nephews and they can deal with it.:)

.
 

taherrmann4

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You must be a LOT younger than me, Dave, because I can remember MY science teacher placing small blobs of mercury in our palms so we could see what it was and how it behaved! Must have played with that rolling lump for a half-hour or more before returning it to the bottle. Maybe THAT'S why my memory isn't that great anymore? :confused:
John
John this explains a lot about you.:smuggrin:
 

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